Here we go:
It was insinuated that a Wizard was so awesome they could solo any encounter and be perfect in any situation. When there was a clash about this the opposition side couldn't really come up with a legitimate non-theory-crafted proof of this. So... Here it is...
The Rider Challenge!
Here is the scenario:
Here is the in-depth information, what the party knows:
The party were formed as part of an "adventuring guild" in the land of Virisia. Their teachers claimed forming such a group was tradition. The game started in Nybor but has since moved to Sandpoint and Magnimar. In the third session they located an old book with a legend in it. The legend was written in Draconic:
Linky!
Each party member was also given an amulet, these amulets are carved in the shape of a dragon with a gemstone inset in the center. The origins of these are unknown and so far all attempts to glean information about them has failed (IE nobody passed the rolls) aside from figuring out what each one does.
The party, at one point, stumbled onto a Half-Orc Wizard who had whipped a band of Goblins into his own small army. He was derranged, obviously, and post-humous investigation found a journal that contained talk about blackouts and moments of fugue states. The party eventually found that his base of operations rested on top of an ancient temple that had been buried.
The information gleaned in that temple was that it was buried by the gods, but the reason why, so far, has not been discovered.
In one room the party found a strange mystical device that appeared to be an eye. When they touched it, it came to life, and then seemingly screamed, before exploding. The PCs do not know why. They suspect, however, that the device somehow was some sort of scrying device.
They helped out with a few seemingly random events before they were attacked in their rooms at the inn in the middle of the night. The attackers were gnolls and, though they took them by surprise, and though the spellcasters were drained, the party managed to fight them off.
In the course of the battle the party noticed that there were strange tattoo like symbols on the bodies of the gnolls. The symbols did not match anything anyone recognized as far as significance but the same symbols were on the body of the Half-Orc Wizard.
After the PCs rested they tracked the Gnolls back to their point of origin. They found another Wizard, with the same markings and a similar amulet to theirs was seemingly in control of the gnolls.
The PCs killed him, but this time they drug his body back so that they could get it raised and ask it some questions. They managed to learn that the Wizard was part of a small cult that had sent him out to do the bidding of he who is both alive and dead. The Wizard explained that once he left the cult's compound he has no recollection of what he did.
The PCs are now traveling to the place where the cult was situated. They know where it is, how to get there and little else.
You are replacing the party's wizard.
You have just turned 4th level.
You have exactly 465 GP and 1 magical item, of your choice, not-crafted by you, that is worth no more than 3,200 GP.
Your companions are a human elemental Bloodrager, a half-orc fighter, a half-orc druid, and a human cleric.
Your mission, design a Wizard, going off of that information, that can "solo" this and/or at least outshine your companions in every scenario.
Now, here is some MORE additional information:
1. You will find out once you get into the temple that you are under a time limit. The temple is collapsing due to sabotage by the cult and as such you notice (though knowledge: engineering) you have around 24-28 hours before it collapses.
Meaning the 15 minute adventuring day isn't gonna work here. You do this in more or less 1 pass or not at all.
2. You can expect, based on my GM'ing style, 4-6 encounters ranging from APL, to APL+1, one of these will likely be APL+2.
3. The cult has been known to use more monsterous races, Goblins, Gnolls, and the like as well as Undead. In a previous temple Skeletal Champion: Warriors were encountered as were Skeletal Champion: Clerics and even zombies
4. The cult has a thing for Dragons and Dragon-Like beings, while the party has never encountered such, they are something to be concerned about.
-----
So there ya go. Design the Wizard who can outshine and out-perform. Good luck.
As a card carrying member of Team Wizards Are Best, I'll point out two things right away. First, level 4 is fairly commonly recognized as below the Wizard Godhood Threshold, though I believe that Kyrt will be able to make a good showing regardless. Second, your party is both under-wealthed according to WBL (by roughly 40%), and bizarrely distributed. 87% of your wealth being forced into one item would really skew the builds, if we were running this as a thought experiment for builds in general, rather than a wizard dominance litmus test.
Whatever happens, let's run the same test with other classes afterwards.
"Afterwards" doesn't work, since the point of the test is the competitors are entering it blind. Once you can look at the encounters, all subsequent competitors have a huge leg up.
Jaunt wrote: "Afterwards" doesn't work, since the point of the test is the competitors are entering it blind. Once you can look at the encounters, all subsequent competitors have a huge leg up. I guess submissions would have to be made in advance then. I'm not sure if I'll have time to put anything together any time soon though.
50% troll post here
1th i will take Cleric not wizard then i will wait till lvl 5
next
i would sell item
then spend cash on a lot of black onyxes and then before go inside i will go near hill giants graveyard and animate dead all of them with Bloody Skeleton Template :)
done :)?
Jaunt wrote: As a card carrying member of Team Wizards Are Best, I'll point out two things right away. First, level 4 is fairly commonly recognized as below the Wizard Godhood Threshold.... It wouldn't take much to just say this is at 7th level, or even 9th.
The reason 4th was selected was because the initial challenge from Kyrt was:
"Do you have a campaign running right now Jodokai? With an adventure planned for after your party finishes their current one? If so, we could do this.
Give us an indepth background on the campaign thus far, details on all the party members except the one our wizard will be replacing in as much depth as possible and as much information regarding the upcoming adventure as you will be giving to your players.
We can then build wizards suited to the campaign and party with the appropriate information. Then we can compare it against the planned adventure.
In the back of my mind I can't help but second-guess my good faith that you will accurately present the adventures as planned and won't reinterpret spell effects and/or interactions, but I'm willing to give this a go."
HWalsh happened to have a campaign that was currently ongoing that was at 4th level, so that's what he threw out there. The original challenge didn't specify anything about levels. But, like I said, it could be theorycrafted at whatever level for which HWalsh has already planned the adventure.
Jaunt, the way it was spent was decided by the player. They, of course, have their normal equipment as well. I'm not worried about Ryder having normal gear, component pouches, etc.
They reached level 4 at the end of the previous session and should be at, or near, full WBL by the end of this one.
This is a real-world scenario. What a real party can face. Unless your GM hands out WBL cash at level up this is a very normal scenario.
Not only that, this IS a real campaign with a REAL map, real plotted encounters, real planned events.
I'm 100% not messing with the scenario to make this harder on Ryder. This is being played 100% legit. I'll even supply maps and such after the challenge is done to verify.
This is a roll20 campaign so taking a screen shot's not an issue.
PłentaX wrote: 50% troll post here
1th i will take Cleric not wizard then i will wait till lvl 5
next
i would sell item
then spend cash on a lot of black onyxes and then before go inside i will go near hill giantsgrave yard and anime dead all of them with Bloody Skeleton Template :)
done :)?
50% serious response.
Nope, not done. Due to the description of the encounter set, waiting til 5th level means that the entire complex has been destroyed and the party missed out on the whole thing.
oh comeone i have 28h to lvl up !
i need just done it with this time limit ,its possible to got lvl before it will go BUUUM
If you wanna submit builds feel free.
Today I'm at the hospital with a family member who needs surgery. So this is also a way for me to spend the wait and keep my stress level down.
PłentaX wrote: oh comeone i have 28h to lvl up !
i need just done it with this time limit ,its possible to got lvl before it will go BUUUM
You might be in for a bad day when it turns out the BBEG for this adventure is a channel focused evil cleric with Command Undead or similarly built Necromancer Wizard.
He'd appreciate the free minions.
Saldiven wrote: PłentaX wrote: oh comeone i have 28h to lvl up !
i need just done it with this time limit ,its possible to got lvl before it will go BUUUM
You might be in for a bad day when it turns out the BBEG for this adventure is a channel focused evil cleric with Command Undead or similarly built Necromancer Wizard.
He'd appreciate the free minions. I'll say this:
There may indeed be a Cleric in the dungeon but no. The BBEG (dungeon boss) is not a Cleric.
First, I'd like to highlight that there's no guarantee the Wizard will outshine. Often the most powerful wizard tactics redirect shine onto their minion aka partymates who do the cleanup. There are even times the Wizard fails to 'shine' at all despite providing heavy victory-determining support.
Second, could you please provide specific information on the party?
Quote: Your companions are a human elemental Bloodrager, a half-orc fighter, a half-orc druid, and a human cleric. Race and class is a start, but I'd like to know how these people typically behave in an adventure and in combat. Particularly their fighting styles and how much combat vs casting is normal for the druid and cleric.
Walsh, I'm not suggesting you're deceptively screwing with Kyrt, rather, I'm suggesting that your real life campaign is slanted against wizards (or more generally, the players) when compared with WBL.
Quote: anime dead Oh god, please, please never let me game with a player who uses this spell. You can have your ninjas and kitsune, but I have to draw the line somewhere.
kyrt-ryder wrote: First, I'd like to highlight that there's no guarantee the Wizard will outshine. Often the most powerful wizard tactics redirect shine onto their minion aka partymates who do the cleanup. There are even times the Wizard fails to 'shine' at all despite providing heavy victory-determining support.
Second, could you please provide specific information on the party?
Quote: Your companions are a human elemental Bloodrager, a half-orc fighter, a half-orc druid, and a human cleric. Race and class is a start, but I'd like to know how these people typically behave in an adventure and in combat. Particularly their fighting styles and how much combat vs casting is normal for the druid and cleric.
The elemental Bloodrager is a Slayer/Bloodrager who typically runs in, and hits things with a bastard sword. For harder opponents he rages, which allows him to hit harder and deal elemental fire damage.
The Fighter uses a huge 2 handed ram weapon. He hits like a brick. He uses reach to his advantage and has combat reflexes. He's hard to hit and hits hard. Typically positions himself to protect the party while smashing enemies.
The Druid is focused around his animal companion. Typically he allows his companion to tank and attack while he supports. He's not a healer he can, as a backup, and he will get into the thick.
The Cleric is an odd duck. He buffs the party with song (similar to a bard) but also can heal and enhance. He's primarily a healer/buffer. Typically he hangs back and has a reach spear that he uses to keep enemies at bay.
Oh they also have a CLW Wand with 47 charges as well to help with healing.
Jaunt wrote: Walsh, I'm not suggesting you're deceptively screwing with Kyrt, rather, I'm suggesting that your real life campaign is slanted against wizards (or more generally, the players) when compared with WBL.
Quote: anime dead Oh god, please, please never let me game with a player who uses this spell. You can have your ninjas and kitsune, but I have to draw the line somewhere.
The PCs have around 500-600 GP around 3000-3500 worth of magical gear, and 1000 GP worth of mundane gear.
So they are sitting around 5000 WBL.
They *just* hit level 4. So they are well within acceptable ranges.
HWalsh wrote: Jaunt wrote: Walsh, I'm not suggesting you're deceptively screwing with Kyrt, rather, I'm suggesting that your real life campaign is slanted against wizards (or more generally, the players) when compared with WBL.
Quote: anime dead Oh god, please, please never let me game with a player who uses this spell. You can have your ninjas and kitsune, but I have to draw the line somewhere.
The PCs have around 500-600 GP around 3000-3500 worth of magical gear, and 1000 GP worth of mundane gear.
So they are sitting around 5000 WBL.
They *just* hit level 4. So they are well within acceptable ranges. The character described in the first post has well under 4000 GP of wealth. That's closer to the wbl they "should" have had when they started third level than when they started fourth. I run adventure paths, so my characters usually bounce around wbl, but I wouldn't call that well within range myself.
I don't think it's the wealth overall that is the issue - it's the fact that he's limited to a *single* 3200 GP item and around 460 GP in miscellaneous supplies, rather than just 3660 GP to spend as he wishes (such as scrolls or adding spells).
I find that to be a strange restriction. Why not just list a wealth and allow the player to spend it as he wishes?
Aside from that, this post is to dot this thread for future reference. I want to see how this plays out.
1000 GP worth of bear traps, and lots of castings of unseen servant.
Felyndiira wrote: I don't think it's the wealth overall that is the issue - it's the fact that he's limited to a *single* 3200 GP item and around 460 GP in miscellaneous supplies, rather than just 3660 GP to spend as he wishes (such as scrolls or adding spells).
I find that to be a strange restriction. Why not just list a wealth and allow the player to spend it as he wishes?
Aside from that, this post is to dot this thread for future reference. I want to see how this plays out.
There is a common misconception about wealth by level. This does not reflect the amount of optimized equipment the character should have. It is the total value of the treasure the character should have obtained by that level. To quote the WBL rules, "some of this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure (such as potions and scrolls), and that some of the less useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can be purchased." It's totally possible that a 4th level character have received 6,000 gp of treasure but only have 3,000 gp of equipment because all of the treasure he received was stuff of non-monetary equivalent value that was sold for 1/2 price because that character didn't want it, or would rather sell it for something else.
Furthermore WBL is a suggestion, not a hard rule. WBL isn't intended to be at max on reaching level, its the amount of GP characters have at the listed level.
If you are STARTING at the number in WBL then your party is going well over WBL because, for example, they'll be at level 4 but have nearly the WBL for an average level 5.
That listing is where they should be midway through that level, which is what it represents. As long as they are in the ballpark between the previous level and current level they are well within acceptable ranges.
Saldiven wrote: ...It is the total value of the treasure the character should have obtained by that level... I get that, but please read what my post is saying. My question is about the "single item with 3,200 GP" limit. Why is a wizard not able to spend that 3,200 GP on three wands if he wishes, instead of being limited to a single expensive item?
Felyndiira wrote: Saldiven wrote: ...It is the total value of the treasure the character should have obtained by that level... I get that, but please read what my post is saying. My question is about the "single item with 3,200 GP" limit. Why is a wizard not able to spend that 3,200 GP on three wands if he wishes, instead of being limited to a single expensive item? No telling.
I assume there is some story reason for this, HWalsh? Are all the characters in the party equipped this way, too?
Saldiven wrote: Felyndiira wrote: Saldiven wrote: ...It is the total value of the treasure the character should have obtained by that level... I get that, but please read what my post is saying. My question is about the "single item with 3,200 GP" limit. Why is a wizard not able to spend that 3,200 GP on three wands if he wishes, instead of being limited to a single expensive item? No telling.
I assume there is some story reason for this, HWalsh? Are all the characters in the party equipped this way, too? Not really I just glanced at the current Wizard's sheet.
If this is THAT crippling Ryder can break it up. I don't mind.
It's not exactly crippling but it is a huge deviation from standard practices that has a meaningful impact on the character's power.
Particularly because this is a Wizard, and Wizards often do best investing a great deal of wealth into tiny parts in the form of scrolls for contingency options.
You did say there was 1,000 gold worth of 'other stuff' available to each character? That would cover the expenses of learning a few additional spells per spell level available, scribing a few scrolls and perhaps purchasing one or two 3rd level scrolls 'just in case.'
Extra first and second level spells, sure. The Wizard's had spellbooks after all. Third? Nope. Haven't been anywhere those are readily available. 1st and 2nd level Scrolls? Certainly.
HWalsh wrote: Saldiven wrote: Felyndiira wrote: Saldiven wrote: ...It is the total value of the treasure the character should have obtained by that level... I get that, but please read what my post is saying. My question is about the "single item with 3,200 GP" limit. Why is a wizard not able to spend that 3,200 GP on three wands if he wishes, instead of being limited to a single expensive item? No telling.
I assume there is some story reason for this, HWalsh? Are all the characters in the party equipped this way, too? Not really I just glanced at the current Wizard's sheet.
If this is THAT crippling Ryder can break it up. I don't mind. Ah, I get it. You were giving the belonging structure that the current wizard has.
HWalsh wrote: Extra first and second level spells, sure. The Wizard's had spellbooks after all. Third? Nope. Haven't been anywhere those are readily available. 1st and 2nd level Scrolls? Certainly. A level 3 scroll normally costs 375gp. The Settlement Rules from the GMG suggest such items are available in something as small as a village which has a base purchase value of 500gp and 3rd level spellcasting available.
I suspect your home campaign conditions are very different from the base game assumptions.
That or your players are trapped in the middle of nowhere.
andreww wrote: HWalsh wrote: Extra first and second level spells, sure. The Wizard's had spellbooks after all. Third? Nope. Haven't been anywhere those are readily available. 1st and 2nd level Scrolls? Certainly. A level 3 scroll normally costs 375gp. The Settlement Rules from the GMG suggest such items are available in something as small as a village which has a base purchase value of 500gp and 3rd level spellcasting available.
I suspect your home campaign conditions are very different from the base game assumptions.
That or your players are trapped in the middle of nowhere. The party has been traveling nearly constantly as of late so they haven't stopped anywhere in a while that would have had those. (They could have diverted, and I even recommended that they do, but they didn't.)
I might be willing to allow 1, but I'm not going to let the challenge be circumvented by a bunch of higher level spells that the party doesn't have access to.
andreww wrote: HWalsh wrote: Extra first and second level spells, sure. The Wizard's had spellbooks after all. Third? Nope. Haven't been anywhere those are readily available. 1st and 2nd level Scrolls? Certainly. A level 3 scroll normally costs 375gp. The Settlement Rules from the GMG suggest such items are available in something as small as a village which has a base purchase value of 500gp and 3rd level spellcasting available. I believe those rules state there is a chance of such an item being available, correct? Something which has a value below that cutoff has a 75% chance of being found, not that it's guaranteed to be available.
"Base Value and Purchase Limit: This section lists the community's base value for available magic items in gp. There is a 75% chance that any item of this value or lower can be found for sale in the community with little effort. If an item is not available, a new check to determine if the item has become available can be made in 1 week."
There's no guarantee that any item, other than those specifically determined to be available by the GM in the Minor/Medium/Major magic items list, will be purchasable in any settlement.
There are two deceased enemy Wizards, what are the contents of their spell books?
Turin - I'd have to be home to pull exact lists. However to turn over the spell lists wouldn't be fair and here is why:
The PCs were level 2 when they killed the first.
The PCs gained level 4 the session right before they killed the 2nd.
It would be unfair for Ryder's Wizard to be built with OOC knowledge over what spells they were to gain and thus maximize info.
So in lieu of that I'll allow 3 1st level spells to be added and 1 2nd level spell to be added to Ryder's.
This thread is actually giving us a lot of insight. It's a lot better than theory crafting as we are seeing a character built under common constraints.
We are seeing things in a real-world scenario where not every village has 5th and 6th level Wizards.
Where characters have to deal with reasonable constraints on things such as time.
Where characters aren't coordinated to optimize with 100% synergy.
In short:
This is a very good test. Is the Caster supremacy inherent to the game or is it artificially created by a specific GM playstyle.
Do time/resource constraints stop it from happening? Is there a specific element which enables it?
I've said, many times, that I have never seen it aside from in theory crafting scenarios. Is it possible that my old school approach to adventure design is the key to it?
My hypothesis?
I haven't stacked this scenario against spellcasters. There is nothing here that is unreasonable. It's possible that the commonly called out issues don't exist at this level. We'll have to see.
My players will run this scenario Friday.
The Wizard in the actual party isn't optimized. Most of my PCs aren't. If the situation is most dire we should see a contrast.
Giving a bump 'cuz I'm interested in how this experiment turns out, and it's dropped off the first page.
HWalsh wrote: Turin - I'd have to be home to pull exact lists. However to turn over the spell lists wouldn't be fair and here is why:
The PCs were level 2 when they killed the first.
The PCs gained level 4 the session right before they killed the 2nd.
It would be unfair for Ryder's Wizard to be built with OOC knowledge over what spells they were to gain and thus maximize info.
So in lieu of that I'll allow 3 1st level spells to be added and 1 2nd level spell to be added to Ryder's.
Alternatively, have him select his spells known up to Level 2 Wizard, then provide the first spell book's spell list. Then have him select his spells known up to Level 4 Wizard, and then provide the second spell book's list.
This would put him in the same position as if he had been playing from day one as far as spells known are concerned. For example, your current wizard already had the first enemy Wizard's spell book when he gained 3rd and 4th levels, so likely wouldn't have picked spells that he could already have learned from the book. However, he wouldn't have had access to the second spell book until after he had already selected the spells gained from the 3rd and 4th level advancement. This allows the normal potential overlap that a Wizard in an active campaign can experience.
Though, that's extra due diligence to be done. May be perceived as too much of a hassle.
Saldiven wrote: HWalsh wrote: Turin - I'd have to be home to pull exact lists. However to turn over the spell lists wouldn't be fair and here is why:
The PCs were level 2 when they killed the first.
The PCs gained level 4 the session right before they killed the 2nd.
It would be unfair for Ryder's Wizard to be built with OOC knowledge over what spells they were to gain and thus maximize info.
So in lieu of that I'll allow 3 1st level spells to be added and 1 2nd level spell to be added to Ryder's.
Alternatively, have him select his spells known up to Level 2 Wizard, then provide the first spell book's spell list. Then have him select his spells known up to Level 4 Wizard, and then provide the second spell book's list.
This would put him in the same position as if he had been playing from day one as far as spells known are concerned. For example, your current wizard already had the first enemy Wizard's spell book when he gained 3rd and 4th levels, so likely wouldn't have picked spells that he could already have learned from the book. However, he wouldn't have had access to the second spell book until after he had already selected the spells gained from the 3rd and 4th level advancement. This allows the normal potential overlap that a Wizard in an active campaign can experience.
Though, that's extra due diligence to be done. May be perceived as too much of a hassle. That's the nice thing about read magic, it's fast. Depending upon timing, all that matters is that the Wizard PC has deciphered both spell books so that he can prepare spells from them and his own.
Turin the Mad wrote: Saldiven wrote: HWalsh wrote: Turin - I'd have to be home to pull exact lists. However to turn over the spell lists wouldn't be fair and here is why:
The PCs were level 2 when they killed the first.
The PCs gained level 4 the session right before they killed the 2nd.
It would be unfair for Ryder's Wizard to be built with OOC knowledge over what spells they were to gain and thus maximize info.
So in lieu of that I'll allow 3 1st level spells to be added and 1 2nd level spell to be added to Ryder's.
Alternatively, have him select his spells known up to Level 2 Wizard, then provide the first spell book's spell list. Then have him select his spells known up to Level 4 Wizard, and then provide the second spell book's list.
This would put him in the same position as if he had been playing from day one as far as spells known are concerned. For example, your current wizard already had the first enemy Wizard's spell book when he gained 3rd and 4th levels, so likely wouldn't have picked spells that he could already have learned from the book. However, he wouldn't have had access to the second spell book until after he had already selected the spells gained from the 3rd and 4th level advancement. This allows the normal potential overlap that a Wizard in an active campaign can experience.
Though, that's extra due diligence to be done. May be perceived as too much of a hassle. That's the nice thing about read magic, it's fast. Depending upon timing, all that matters is that the Wizard PC has deciphered both spell books so that he can prepare spells from them and his own. True. But the issue in question is this: If the person making the new Wizard knows from the beginning what spells will be available in those two spell books, that will influence his spell selections at 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th levels so that there is no duplication between those gained at each level and what is gained from the books, thereby maximizing spells known and increasing flexibility and effectiveness. This wouldn't be possible for someone who had been participating in the campaign from day one. The exercise is trying to be as "real world" as possible for the creation of a character, seeking to mimic the choices a player would have made had they been part of the campaign.
Oh, I'm fine with that. It's how I design my own Wizard NPCs, level by level, depending upon how detailed I make the backstory. "Must haves" without relying upon acquired books, "be nice to haves", et al. From what I've seen, spell books during an AP overlap fairly heavily, somewhere around 60%, depending on the specific Wizard. An enchanter or diviner in a necromancy-heavy campaign would have less overlap with the villains' spellbooks.
I'm hoping we get an actual build submitted sometime....
If you're looking to me for a build I've been swamped with IRL issues the past day or two but I am pecking away at it.
As a note to anybody else in this thread with experience with Wizards, by all means please feel free to participate as well.
Anyone who wants to can submit.
Full disclosure:
My father was in a horrible accident Sunday night. He's in the hospital and I've been by him. This thread is part so I just have something to keep me sane and distracted.
So if people wanna submit builds we'll go from here.
The main thing is that this is real world building. Not theory crafted.
Part of my theory is a huge part of the issue is the sandbox design which Pathfinder/D&D never did well. This will help see it.
Since wizards get scribe scroll for free can the submitted PC have half price scrolls of spells that he knows? CL 3 or less since 4th was just obtained?
Half price items for a wizard with a crafting feat and other prereqs?
The 3 free 1sts and 1 free 2nd sounds reasonable.
Will the party follow tactics that allow the wizard to use spells to best effect? (Let him cast sleep before you rush in)
Any alignment restrictions?
How are stat generated?
Race?
Traits?
Some thoughts on builds.
At this level sleep is a good way to clear a room full of mooks though the tougher monsters will likely have 6HD+
I memorize a combat load out and carry scrolls for non combat stuff. At this level having unused slots is painful.
The party makeup is ripe for buffing. I think I would take a scroll of haste as my 1 3rd level scroll.
A buffed cantrip might still make a good base weapon.
Most combats last about 3 rounds so that means 12 to 18 chances to cast in combat. 6 shots at 1st round spells.
Mathius wrote: Since wizards get scribe scroll for free can the submitted PC have half price scrolls of spells that he knows? CL 3 or less since 4th was just obtained?
Half price items for a wizard with a crafting feat and other prereqs?
The original post and things subsequent to that hint that crafted items aren't allowed, and that there has been limited downtime to do much dedicated crafting, anyway.
Mathius wrote: Since wizards get scribe scroll for free can the submitted PC have half price scrolls of spells that he knows? CL 3 or less since 4th was just obtained? Sure.
Quote: Half price items for a wizard with a crafting feat and other prereqs? Nope. Here is why, the crafting feat would have been gotten at level 3. There is no way for me to properly, realistically, guage how much you'd have to spend aside from the cash mentioned in the initial.
Quote: The 3 free 1sts and 1 free 2nd sounds reasonable.
Will the party follow tactics that allow the wizard to use spells to best effect? (Let him cast sleep before you rush in)
When possible. The party doesn't always have the initiative.
Quote: Any alignment restrictions? In the game? Good only. I doubt that's an issue here.
Quote: How are stat generated? 20 pt buy.
Quote: Race? Preferably core only. The idea isn't to create the most mega optimized obscure combination.
Quote: Traits? Max of 2.
Quote: Some thoughts on builds.
At this level sleep is a good way to clear a room full of mooks though the tougher monsters will likely have 6HD+
I memorize a combat load out and carry scrolls for non combat stuff. At this level having unused slots is painful.
The party makeup is ripe for buffing. I think I would take a scroll of haste as my 1 3rd level scroll.
A buffed cantrip might still make a good base weapon.
Most combats last about 3 rounds so that means 12 to 18 chances to cast in combat. 6 shots at 1st round spells.
You are free to think that. We've had a number that are 6-7 depending on the situation.
It's no entry, but here's my semi-informed analysis of the challenge. Maybe it'll save Kyrt and other contestants some time.
-24-28 hours after arriving at the dungeon, unless you arrive there at the exact same time you prepared your spells and finished resting, is actually enough time to sneak in 1 rest. Unless you arrive at the dungeon messed up and need the rest to get in your initial foray.
-We're given to expect 6 encounters in the worst case scenario, and it will likely include at least 1 encounter of of a group of CR3 or less mooks, 1 encounter of undead of unknown numbers, 1 dragon-related encounter, and 1 caster boss. The remaining 2 encounters are wild cards, duplicates, or weird variants.
-You get 7 spells per day, and there could be 6 encounters. These are not great odds for the Wizard. Nonetheless, with clever husbandry of scrolls and wands, I think that you can pull out something good. I recommend taking a Bonded Object to get a third (or fourth) 2nd level spell.
-You're one level shy of 3rd level spells. Not a tip so much as a small lament.
-Depending on how much you value DCs and an extra level 1 cast, your int will be most effective at 14 or 20.
Get a pair of springloaded wrist sheathes, fill them with rolled up scrolls.
Spell Strategy:
In order to outshine the rest of the group in up to 6 combats in a day (or two), your spells have to all be chosen to be super impactful. They also have to be chosen for combat. Utility is relegated to scrolls at this level.
The basic fights you will have to be able to account for, in some combination are One Big Thing, Two Biggish Things, and Mooks. There's also a chance of One Big Thing With Mooks, perhaps as the boss. Being able to target mindless things is a plus, as is targeting a variety of saves, as is being able to fill multiple roles.
One Big Guy - You're actually worst here at this level, I think. Glitterdust allows a lot of saves, web won't hold things with good CMBs, Create Pit won't work on flyers, climbers, or other inconveniently mobile thing. Your options are fairly thin for single target save or dies, no matter what save you target.
Two Guys - Another very annoying category. Web is more reliable here.
Mooks - This is the easiest category. Sleep might bonk a few guys into unconsciousness, but not if they're undead. Color Spray is still good against these guys. Grease will still be good.
I'm sure this analysis is incomplete, but it helped sort my thoughts a little bit. Feel free to add or correct as anyone sees fit.
Keeping my fingers crossed for you, Walsh.
Resting in the dungeon is possible, but problematic. Remember it's not just 8 hours of sleep, its a full day. Best bet is to rest before going in and going in fresh.
After that, best advice is to save spells when you can.
A full day of time passage, which isn't really a problem. Consider the following scenario:
8:00 - Wake up, prepare spells in case there's trouble en route.
9:00 - Mount up and travel.
15:00 - Arrive at the dungeon. Make first foray. Timer begins now (24 hours left).
16:00 - After one hour of exploration and combat, call an end to your quadruple-length adventuring day. Hike out of the dungeon, set up camp somewhere secluded. (23 hours)
17:00 - Go to sleep. Make the non-casters keep watch. (22 hours.)
1:00 - Wake up the next day, prepare spells for second time. Assault dungeon under cover of darkness. (14 hours until self-destruct)
@Jaunt: That's possible, but potentially irrelevant. If there's that much time between travel and arrival, are their encounters along the way? How do we know the party doesn't arrive at 10:00AM rather than 3:00PM? How much meaningful exploration do you accomplish in that one hour? If you harass the location for an hour then leave, what degree of preparations are the inhabitants going to make while the party is gone that make the encounters even more difficult? Will the inhabitants mount forays against the party throughout the night? They are as aware as the party of the importance of casters getting their 8 hours of uninterrupted rest since the destination has casters as well; why would they let the party rest unmolested? They could send archers in to lob arrows at the sleeping casters or their own casters to drop AOE damage spells to interrupt the casters' rest, and do this every 3-7 hours to prevent the party's casters from ever recovering their spells.
Now, some people will claim that's obnoxious GMing; I think it's merely rational tactical decisions made by an intelligent opponent who has any understanding of their opponent's capabilities.
Saldiven wrote: @Jaunt: That's possible, but potentially irrelevant. If there's that much time between travel and arrival, are their encounters along the way? How do we know the party doesn't arrive at 10:00AM rather than 3:00PM? How much meaningful exploration do you accomplish in that one hour? If you harass the location for an hour then leave, what degree of preparations are the inhabitants going to make while the party is gone that make the encounters even more difficult? Will the inhabitants mount forays against the party throughout the night? They are as aware as the party of the importance of casters getting their 8 hours of uninterrupted rest since the destination has casters as well; why would they let the party rest unmolested? They could send archers in to lob arrows at the sleeping casters or their own casters to drop AOE damage spells to interrupt the casters' rest, and do this every 3-7 hours to prevent the party's casters from ever recovering their spells.
Now, some people will claim that's obnoxious GMing; I think it's merely rational tactical decisions made by an intelligent opponent who has any understanding of their opponent's capabilities.
In addition to that, the inhabitants, realizing they are under attack, after having been breached by the first foray may speed up the timetable causing the collapse sooner.
"Okay everyone we are under attack! Ditch the original plan, take what you can and lets blow this place while we still can!"
Not saying that will happen, mind you, but at no time should PCs assume they have an exact time table.
Also, to note:
4-6 encounters isn't an extended adventuring day. That's actually average for an AP.
Part of the issue a lot of GMs have with the claimed disparity I think is:
1. They don't throw enough encounters.
2. They let the party 100% set the pace which leads to nova'ing and the 15 minute work day.
In my campaigns, usually, its not uncommon for a caster to not cast a spell during an encounter (conserving as it isn't needed) or instead to lob cantrips or crossbow bolts through it.
|
