I'm not sure where to put this thread, but I figured General was sufficient.
My question about the Simulacrum spell is specifically regarding this line:
A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities.
What does that mean exactly? I get that it can't gain class levels to include improving skill points, but how does that play out in your games? Do Simulacrum have no short term memories or do they simply never choose to improve themselves.
What happens if they read a self-help book? Do they completely forget the contents or are they simply incapable of incorporating a new way of thinking.
Lets say you make Sally the Simulacrum. She was specifically created because you found the best receptionist ever when you were on holiday in Rio and you wanted a Sally of very own for use in this little B&B you opened last year. (Or whatever.)
Is sally capable of remembering people? repeat customers? who tipped her the best? Or is every interaction as if she's never seen you before in her life?
Thoughts?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Out of curiosity what makes you think they are soulless? The have the same "type" as whatever they are emulating. As a part of having that type, they have a soul.
For example, from the outsider type.
Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit.
Now if you make a simulacrum of something that does not have a soul (mindless undead), the simulacrum would not either.
It is important for simulacra to have souls for their interaction with spells like magic jar.
My use for simulacra is to possess them, not have them possess something else. I think it is thematic to have a caster make a new body for themself and then use it instead of their own.
Not terribly different from calling in something to possess.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
All it means is that a Simulacrum cannot gain any levels or abilities. The second sentence clarifies the first to detail how precisely the simulacrum cannot become more powerful. It can remember customers, improve at it's job (just not it's profession skill) and generally do anything that isn't gaining levels or new abilities.
It's pretty straight forward.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I generally portray simulacra as 'philosophical zombies.' Essentially, personality and intellect, with no real soul or guiding force outside of their directives and programming.
Essentially, a simulacra 'reasons' and 'acts on its reasoning' but its no more a real person then a game AI. Everything it does is essentially a function of its 'code.' Remember kids, just because you're smart and can process data logically doesn't mean you're an entity. And yes, this means you can be an intelligence 30 simulacra and still not be a person.
That being said I also don't allow for simulacra to do wishes or similar shennigans (such powers being a function of the entity's relation to the cosmos as opposed to something about the vague magical forces associated with the entity).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It means the spell was copied wholesale from the 3.X PHBs. As it's read, you couldn't deck a simulacrum out in armor and hand it a sword because it's "becoming more powerful" (aka it's numbers on a sheet improve). Which is completely unenforceable, totally against the general intent of the spell, and beyond idiotic. Those two sentences really should have been combined to read something to the effect of, "A simulacrum cannot gain new hit dice or any of the benefits associated with this, like hit points or feats or class features". Paizo (perhaps unwisely) trusted the player base to NOT be ridiculous with this. They do that a lot.
|
|
No they don't have the same type... they are not true living beings but essentially magic constructs which is why if you kill them all that's left behind is a melting pile of snow.And I don't feel it's important nor thematic to have simulacrae casting magic jar or posession spells.
Hahah what, so if I have favored enemy evil outsider, and some guy has a simulacrum pit fiend, you would rule that I would not get my favoured enemy bonus against the simulacrum?
You need to read the spell dude
Well, I just read the spell, dude, and it says nothing about the creature type. It talks about appearance and abilities, not once does it mention type or subtype. So, it's up in the air as to what it is. Personally, I'd treat it like the creature it's imitating, but it's closer to a construct than anything.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The effect is "one duplicate creature" I assume that means it is the same except as modified by the rest of the text. The rest of the text does not modify the type so I assume it is duplicated per the effect.
By having one that's part illusion and part snow construct?
Except there is no text to suggest that would affect the simulacrum's type.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Snowball's chance in Hell. :]Except there is no text to suggest that would affect the simulacrum's type.How could you have a creature with outsider hit dice that is not an outsider lolBy having one that's part illusion and part snow construct?
Ba Dum Bum.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, I just read the spell, dude, and it says nothing about the creature type. It talks about appearance and abilities, not once does it mention type or subtype. So, it's up in the air as to what it is. Personally, I'd treat it like the creature it's imitating, but it's closer to a construct than anything.it isn't up in the air as to what it is?
it says Appears to be the same, but half HD. That means it has animal, monstrous humanoid, human, etc HIT DICE. How could you have a creature with outsider hit dice that is not an outsider lol
CWheezy has it right - it's long been established that a Simulacrum does retain the Creature type of the creature you are duplicating. Cast the spell to duplicate an Outsider? The simulacrum is an Outsider.
Besides lots of simulacrum threads on the Boards where you can find this, I also offer, as proof of my position, the published simulacrum of Vraxeris from Rise of the Runelords (Sins of the Saviors).
Vraxeris is a simulacrum of a human wizard. His creature type? Medium HUMANOID.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
At least in PF there are rules for determining statistics of simulacrums in the bestiary since it has rules for how stats should change if you remove HD from a creature.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, I just read the spell, dude, and it says nothing about the creature type. It talks about appearance and abilities, not once does it mention type or subtype. So, it's up in the air as to what it is. Personally, I'd treat it like the creature it's imitating, but it's closer to a construct than anything.it isn't up in the air as to what it is?
it says Appears to be the same, but half HD. That means it has animal, monstrous humanoid, human, etc HIT DICE. How could you have a creature with outsider hit dice that is not an outsider lol
CWheezy has it right - it's long been established that a Simulacrum does retain the Creature type of the creature you are duplicating. Cast the spell to duplicate an Outsider? The simulacrum is an Outsider.
Besides lots of simulacrum threads on the Boards where you can find this, I also offer, as proof of my position, the published simulacrum of Vraxeris from Rise of the Runelords (Sins of the Saviors).
Vraxeris is a simulacrum of a human wizard. His creature type? Medium HUMANOID.
Whether it's been "long established" or not, nothing in the rules says it is. Implies, sure, but implication is not RAW. As I said, I would treat them as the same creature type, but it's not as cut and dry as you claim.
And using builds from RotR is not exactly a great reference...seeing as how in the same AP they have impossible builds like Cha 8 clerics having selective channeling as a feat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, I just read the spell, dude, and it says nothing about the creature type. It talks about appearance and abilities, not once does it mention type or subtype. So, it's up in the air as to what it is. Personally, I'd treat it like the creature it's imitating, but it's closer to a construct than anything.it isn't up in the air as to what it is?
it says Appears to be the same, but half HD. That means it has animal, monstrous humanoid, human, etc HIT DICE. How could you have a creature with outsider hit dice that is not an outsider lol
CWheezy has it right - it's long been established that a Simulacrum does retain the Creature type of the creature you are duplicating. Cast the spell to duplicate an Outsider? The simulacrum is an Outsider.
Besides lots of simulacrum threads on the Boards where you can find this, I also offer, as proof of my position, the published simulacrum of Vraxeris from Rise of the Runelords (Sins of the Saviors).
Vraxeris is a simulacrum of a human wizard. His creature type? Medium HUMANOID.
Whether it's been "long established" or not, nothing in the rules says it is. Implies, sure, but implication is not RAW. As I said, I would treat them as the same creature type, but it's not as cut and dry as you claim.
And using builds from RotR is not exactly a great reference...seeing as how in the same AP they have impossible builds like Cha 8 clerics having selective channeling as a feat.
Take it as you will - I suggest three sources of information that support my position that help build on the lack of detail found within the spell description. Admittedly, the spell is a mess of ambiguity and fails to spell out Every. Little. Detail. But we have the following to help us when RAW isn't as succinct as we'd like:
1) Basic, common sense parsing of the English language. CWheezy's quote "how can you have an Outsider whose Hit Dice aren't Outsiders?" hits the nail on the head. Simulacrum copies the creature type is the inference.
2) Board discussions of the issue (there are piles of threads on simulacrum). Pretty sure that if I had the time I could hunt down some choice clarifications from James in his "ask James Jacobs" thread. While consensus does not equal being "correct" it does offer an idea of what how most people interpret the spell RAW.
<EDIT> Here's the Link: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ljov?Simulacrum#10 James himself clarifies it for us - sims DO MAINTAIN the creature type.
3) Published material from Paizo. An error in something else in RotRL HARDLY disproves my point - the publishers of the game just spelled out the answer for you in black and white. If I had the time and inclination, I'd hunt down another published simulacrum of a Type-1 Demon that Paizo put in one of their modules. I'd be willing to bet "one internets" that it's creature type is "Outsider".
If you choose to ignore all of the above because "it's not in the spells RAW" that's your prerogative. I'm suggesting that there is enough proof in existence to answer the question about what a sim's creature type is to mitigate the spell's failure to spell it out for you.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Game developers clarified long ago that sims do possess their counterpart's creature type.
Nevertheless, I think it is less that the ARE that creature, than that they are an incredibly convincing facsimile of that creature--so much so that they ARE considered that creature for nearly all of this game's rules. However, they are magically created spell effects, not creatures (even though they are treated as creatures) and thus have nothing that can be called a true soul.
Otherwise, fiendish lords would supply themselves with an infinite number of "artificial souls" that they created via the similucrum spell, which clearly isn't the case.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Game developers clarified long ago that sims do possess their counterpart's creature type.
Nevertheless, I think it is less that the ARE that creature, than that they are an incredibly convincing facsimile of that creature--so much so that they ARE considered that creature for nearly all of this game's rules. However, they are magically created spell effects, not creatures (even though they are treated as creatures) and thus have nothing that can be called a true soul.
Otherwise, fiendish lords would supply themselves with an infinite number of "artificial souls" that they created via the similucrum spell, which clearly isn't the case.
Very nicely said. I also just found the link to James clarifying that point and posted it as an edit above - answering, in fact, questions you asked him (a very good, extensive list of questions, I might add).
I would agree with how you'd treat a sim creature too - if you bring a Simulacrum Tarrasque to zero HP, I would rule you have a puddle of snow, not the body of a regenerating Tarrasque. Nor would I give a sim a "soul" in the sense that it could Magic Jar people, etc. Magically created creatures that have limitations because of the spell effect is more how I'd word it, perhaps.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Am I to understand I can make simulacrum Constructs?
If so, do they have all the same features including spell immunities, etc?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Am I to understand I can make simulacrum Constructs?
If so, do they have all the same features including spell immunities, etc?
Yeah, pretty much nothing changes except stuff based on HD.
This has the equally ridiculous thing where say an elder green dragon with a scroll and enough dosh can make a simulacra of himself that possesses his full breath weapon (age category not HD), and spell casting capability (age category again).
Their size doesn't even change, just the hit die.
Spell as written is kinda weird like that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Am I to understand I can make simulacrum Constructs?
If so, do they have all the same features including spell immunities, etc?
Yeah, pretty much nothing changes except stuff based on HD.
This has the equally ridiculous thing where say an elder green dragon with a scroll and enough dosh can make a simulacra of himself that possesses his full breath weapon (age category not HD), and spell casting capability (age category again).
Their size doesn't even change, just the hit die.
Spell as written is kinda weird like that.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Am I to understand I can make simulacrum Constructs?
If so, do they have all the same features including spell immunities, etc?
I...huh. Well, THAT'S a whole new category of shenanigans waiting to happen now, isn't it?
Gee...wouldn't this be a great 3pp idea! A book on different simulacra and spells for their creation. I tried a p*** poor revision a dozen years ago, establishing that 'x' level was required to create 'y' creature (usually y=2x in level), but it got lost in the shuffle. When I discovered 3pp material, I guessed someone would turn a hand to them, but none as yet to be found.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My question about the Simulacrum spell is specifically regarding this line:
A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities.
What does that mean exactly?
No new HD, feats, traits, skills, class levels, etc.
Also:
Simulacra also cannot create spawn, as that would be an increase in power.
Make a simulacrum of a Yellow Musk Creeper, and it cannot make any Yellow Musk Zombies.
/cevah
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My question about the Simulacrum spell is specifically regarding this line:
A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities.
What does that mean exactly?
No new HD, feats, traits, skills, class levels, etc.
Also:
Simulacra also cannot create spawn, as that would be an increase in power.
Make a simulacrum of a Yellow Musk Creeper, and it cannot make any Yellow Musk Zombies.
/cevah
A simulacrum can create spawn as that does not increase it's level or abilities. The Simulacrum itself is in no way more powerful for having a minion. It is still exactly as powerful it was previously.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My question about the Simulacrum spell is specifically regarding this line:
A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities.
What does that mean exactly?
No new HD, feats, traits, skills, class levels, etc.
Also:
Simulacra also cannot create spawn, as that would be an increase in power.
Make a simulacrum of a Yellow Musk Creeper, and it cannot make any Yellow Musk Zombies.
/cevah
I think that creating spawn is an increase in power the same way that picking up a sword or accepting a buff is an increase in power.
Would you bar a simulacrum from picking up a sword?
Developers have explicitly stated that sims cannot create spawn, as it does increase their power.
Wasn't it already linked to further up in the thread?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The person didn't linkify it, and the post that says that is actually in a different post
As for monsters that create spawn, I would rule that "create spawn" would fall under the aegis of "getting more powerful," something that a simulacrum can't actually do. So a simulacrum of a creature that can create spawn would not be able to create spawn.
This isn't an official ruling, though (although it suggests the direction the design team is likely to take if they ever FAQ the spell).
...
Now, on the other hand, if it's a GM who's asking for advice on how to handle this spell, then here's my advice as one GM to another. As with all of my advice on rules, this should be taken with the philosophy of "It's okay for the GM to make the ruling—in fact, it's expected."
...
Thanks, Snowblind. My memory isn't perfect and so I didn't realize it was an unofficial opinion (of a game developer).
Thanks, Snowblind. My memory isn't perfect and so I didn't realize it was an unofficial opinion (of a game developer).Logic does follow that Monster plus X minions under it's control, is more powerful than Monster alone.
I agree.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks, Snowblind. My memory isn't perfect and so I didn't realize it was an unofficial opinion (of a game developer).Logic does follow that Monster plus X minions under it's control, is more powerful than Monster alone.
The question is does that actually make said monster more powerful? I'd say not really, it just gives it access to allies. Refer back to the "pick up a sword" scenario; it's not making the simulacrum more powerful, it's allowing the simulacrum to use the power it has better. It'd be like saying a simulacrum can't cast dominate or use summon monster; or that a simulacrum barbarian couldn't rage.