Haste + Polymorph / Fly Spells

[Sinistrad]

So last week I was at a PFS table. The summoner cast Haste on the party, and on my turn I cast fly.

I proceeded to start moving 90 ft (60ft Fly + 30 haste) and the GM stopped me and said because I cast Fly after I received Haste, that Haste was not buffing my Fly speed.

I know this is just plain wrong. I argued that Haste has a duration and is a constant effect like a condition. *I am hasted.* I am moving faster, and as a result, just because I gained a movement mode after the effect doesn't mean I do not get the hasted movement for that new movement mode.

I feel this is such a basic and self-evident concept that I am not really sure how to argue my case when this comes up again (it most likely will).

Are there any bits of rules text I can cite that would help me argue my case? This ruling hurts my party because it means I'll be casting haste when I cannot effect them (because I have to do it after I polymorph/fly while inside a Time Stutter).

Any help or nudges in the right direction are greatly appreciated.

[PłentaX]

Haste wont work on Fly spell "The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet "
Fly dont grant you natural mode of movement thats why Haste wont work cuz haste increase All of the hasted creature's modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim)

[Vanykrye]

The Fly spell gives you a fly speed, a maneuverability rating, and an additional bonus to the fly skill equal to 1/2 caster level. If that isn't considered granting a movement mode then I don't know what else it could be.

Haste's extra movement speed should affect the fly spell. There's no real reason it shouldn't. However, this isn't the first time this question has come up. 2014 Thread I'm not seeing much changing since then. I'm not seeing a FAQ on it either.

[Sinistrad]

Vanykrye wrote:

The Fly spell gives you a fly speed, a maneuverability rating, and an additional bonus to the fly skill equal to 1/2 caster level. If that isn't considered granting a movement mode then I don't know what else it could be.

Haste's extra movement speed should affect the fly spell. There's no real reason it shouldn't. However, this isn't the first time this question has come up. 2014 Thread I'm not seeing much changing since then. I'm not seeing a FAQ on it either.

I'd imagine there's no FAQ because the designers feel it's as self-evident as I do. :(

Thanks for linking that other thread, though. I'll go check it out!

[Sinistrad]

PłentaX wrote:

Haste wont work on Fly spell "The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet "

Fly dont grant you natural mode of movement thats why Haste wont work cuz haste increase All of the hasted creature's modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim)

Fly gives you a fly speed. If you can fly at speed of 60 feet, you have the movement mode Fly: 60ft (Good maneuverability)

I am pretty sure that particular issue has been resolved elsewhere so I don't think we need to derail this thread with irrelevant side-discussions.

[Vanykrye]

Sinistrad wrote:

I'd imagine there's no FAQ because the designers feel it's as self-evident as I do. :(

Thanks for linking that other thread, though. I'll go check it out!

I went FAQ hunting just in case there was something buried in there that I hadn't heard about.

I understand PlentaX's argument and it's the same argument that came up in that old thread. I know it comes from the PFS viewpoint, but honestly, I feel that sometimes people argue over whether something handed to them is a "gift" versus a "present".

[PłentaX]

I read this 2 spell and that was conclusion that i made.But its my opinion on this topic count it like RAI not RAW :)
I understand mr Vanykrye argument its possible that's he's right and i'm wrong

But in PFS if there is no hard rule about something GM can rule whatever he think is more RAW

[Sinistrad]

PłentaX wrote:

I read this 2 spell and that was conclusion that i made.But its my opinion on this topic count it like RAI not RAW :)

I understand mr Vanykrye argument its possible that's he's right and i'm wrong

But in PFS if there is no hard rule about something GM can rule whatever he think is more RAW

I can see how people come to the conclusion. But some level of abstraction is necessary for the rules to work at all. If an effect gives you all the "parts" of a fly speed, you effectively have a fly speed. This has been supported by many FAQ rulings, official posts, and maybe even some errata.

Anyway, I was able to have a private discussion with my GM away from the table and after pointing out some of the weird consequences that ruling would have on other spells he agreed that the order of application does not matter. Haste buffs any new movement modes you gain, including those gained magically via Fly or Burrow spells, et cetera.

[RuyanVe]

Haste should enhance the fly speed:
the spell calls out the creature's modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject's normal speed using that form of movement.

Nowhere does it say the creature's modes of movement are tied to the creature being "naturally" able to use this way of movement.

Also note, that e.g. the spell longstrider explicitely states that it is only enhancing the caster's base movement but it has no effect on other modes of movement, such as burrow, climb, fly, or swim.

Emphasis mine.

Ruyan.

[CampinCarl9127]

I think you guys are missing the point.

His GM's logic was that haste modifies speed upon casting, and therefore does not modify any speeds that are granted afterwards. I disagree with his logic, but I understand how he got there.

[Casual Viking]

PłentaX wrote:

Haste wont work on Fly spell "The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet "

Fly dont grant you natural mode of movement thats why Haste wont work cuz haste increase All of the hasted creature's modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim)

Now you're just making up non-existent limitations and brand new (bad) concepts.

[Vanykrye]

CampinCarl9127 wrote:

I think you guys are missing the point.

His GM's logic was that haste modifies speed upon casting, and therefore does not modify any speeds that are granted afterwards. I disagree with his logic, but I understand how he got there.

Agreed. Since Haste has a duration the order of operations doesn't matter.

[Ravingdork]

CampinCarl9127 wrote:

I think you guys are missing the point.

His GM's logic was that haste modifies speed upon casting, and therefore does not modify any speeds that are granted afterwards. I disagree with his logic, but I understand how he got there.

This is what I was thinking when I read the OP.

And yes, his GM was mistaken.

[alexd1976]

I don't think it SHOULD add to fly speed in this case, but as written, it looks like it does.

[Parallaxus]

I disagree with the way some guys are approaching discussing rules.
Take this into thought when you post your comment.

First and foremost, am I about to post my opinion or actual game facts.
If it's game facts, source it. This forum generally consists of ppl wanting factual answers, not conjecture, if possible, and if not what your best guess of interpretation is.

Second, (and this is the part that people are violating) if you are stating your opinion for when there is no official ruling of any kind, you need to make damn sure you don't post your opinion as being authoritative. Stating someone else's DM "is mistaken" b/c your guess about how it SHOULD work, not how it does work, is different from his while discussing a subject with no factual right or wrong to it is stupid.

Third, you're arguing over two parts of a subject, and so to avoid arguments caused from misunderstanding, state whether your point is over the "how it should work" or if your comment is over "how you think it actually does work according to the wording of the rules", aka your interpretation. Some ppl are arguing interpretation with other ppl who are opining about it should work.

Too many arguments start b/c of not being clear about we're talking about.

alexd1976 did it well.

As for my interpretation about how it does work, I don't have one. I lean towards them probably not being intended to work together, but it's so close I don't even really want to state that as my opinion of the rule's intent. It's not clear if spells add a movement mode to something or not. As to how I think it should work, I don't have an opinion. I'd like to read some official precedents of other spells working in synergy or independently of each other. The only rule I can think of where the core rules state how two things interact with each other is the two feats maximize and empower, stating they do not affect each other, they only affect the base spell, but that is a piss poor case to use as a precedent for whether spells should work together or not.