Name is a placeholder.
Idea: Combine the Constable's natural Improved Unarmed Strike feat with Crane Style to exploit Order of the Eastern Star's many bonuses to fighting defensively and natural AC bonus vs. challenges, then pile on Combat Expertise for even higher AC and a large bonus to saves.
Get damage mostly from TWF Challenge and Precise Strike + Outflank, later pick up Power Attack.
Use Cestus + Longsword to keep off-hand usable for Crane Wing.
Human
Constable Cavalier
Order of the Eastern Star
Traits: Principled, Deft Dodger
S16 D15+2 C14 I12 W10 CH7
Feats:
1. Dodge, RACIAL: Two-Weapon Fighting, FREE: Imp. Unarmed Strike, TACTICIAN: Precise Strike
3. Crane Style
4. +1 DEX
5. Crane Wing
6. BONUS: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7. Combat Reflexes
8. +1 INT
9. Combat Expertise, TACTICIAN: Outflank
10. BONUS: Crane Wing
11. Power Attack
12. +1 STR
I'm thinking Dirty Fighting over Combat Reflexes and no Combat Expertise. Any input, guys?
You're probably not going to keep up even with Precise, and Outflank, with a late Power Attack.
You're looking at d8+d6+str+PA+enchants for damage, less with the cestus hand. That's nothing. I mean, if that's your table's level of optimization, cool, but you're coming in as a low damage arrow sponge. Which makes you an eminently ignorable arrow sponge.
You might as well take Expertise, since your Order gives you bonuses for it. You also have Crane Wing listed twice.
Combat Reflexes is good for locking people down. I don't think I'd lose it if I were you.
All this advice is given with me having no clue what Constable does.
Leave his name Officer Fisticuffs for sure.
For damage... aren't you forgetting Challenge?
Yeah, I am. Nonetheless, I don't think 1d6+X, x = your level, is enough static damage bonus to justify TWF.
Yeah, I am. Nonetheless, I don't think 1d6+X, x = your level, is enough static damage bonus to justify TWF.
I have to agree and disagree with you here. I agree that Officer fisticuffs is a fantastic name, and the combat reflexes should stay, but I disagree that he won't have enough damage. It isn't just challenge damage, but also everything else you listed before. I honestly think it's gonna be solid for 90% of tables, although I'm iffy about power attack. I'd save it for low AC mooks, or oozes. I'm not familiar with the constable, what kind of bonus is it giving you for saves? Iron will would probably still be worth it, a tank is only helpful when they're on your side.
Side note: Does he/she have a handlebar moustache?
A fu man chu actually.
Constable grants IUS to qualify for Crane Style, and some bonuses to attack on challenged targets plus some other stuff that's mostly for roleplay.
It has the Banner bonus against all enchantment effects too, so it can support saves.
Damage is:
1d6+level+STR+Precise Strike x2 because TWFing, all while having very high AC.
My only question is whether to stick with Order of the Eastern Star, which is very good for defense, Order of the Hammer, to grapple, or some more offensive order like Order of the Flame or Order of Vengeance and such.
I've been looking into the constable as well but I'm not actually sure that the eastern star is the best coice for it. Your standard go to orders such as Dragon/Vengance/Green sorta suck as the morale bonus on attacks from badge does not stack with your challenge bonus. I know the challenge bonus is higher but seems like you are not making the best of your abilities that way.
You could pair it nicely with the order of the seal for the free trip attempt on a challenge (You get bonuses to trip so that helps). Then snap up Combat Reflexes and Vicious Stomp and later get your hands on accelerated drinker to swift action enlarge yourself and hulk out while controlling the battlefield. Also the fluff matches up nicely and you might be able to cheese something like I'm protecting Absalomon so my +2 to hit bonus is always on (then again it's also a morale bonus...).
If pairing Constable and Order of the Eastern Star I'm really not sure you want to go TWF. You only have a minor class inherent accuracy buff from badge (assuming you can see yourself which physically you can) and you are taking -4 to all attacks until you reach level 8 and even then that penalty is only reduced from your first attacks. While admitedly the plan ability is written so loosely that it should be easy to get outflank going more often than not you still have to get into position to flank and that tends to be an undertaking hard to combine with a full attack. You do have brawling armor to improve to hit however but splitting up your points between STR and DEX isn't gonna help either.
However it might also be worth it to look into a Sansetsukon Build and think about Dwarf for the FCB bonus and additional bonuses to saves. With only 1 trait invested you get +3 versus spells +2 for fighting defisively +X from Challenge + 2 from badge and you are rocking better saves than a paladin while getting 1 1/2 times your level on damage. You can also wear a mithral Breatplate which you couldn't if you wanted brawling armor.
Here's a build outline:
Protector of the Undergroud
Dwarf Constable Cavalier 11
STR 18 DEX 13 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 5
Traits:
Glory of Old, ???
Alternate Racial Features: Stoic Negotiator- +2 racial bonus on Bluff, diplomacy, and profession(merchant) -->Great to offset that 5 charisma and make use of your list of class skills.
1 IUS, Dodge, Precise Strike (Retrain level 4 to outflank)
3 Crane Style
5 WF Sansetsukon
6 Power Attack
7 Steel Soul
9 Imp Critical, 2nd Teamwork Feat
11 ???
Note that in DPR calculations for Cavaliers a large Crit range makes a huge difference so it might be better to use a Falchion instead of a sansetsukon. At level 9 the above build does around 78 DPR on a full attack with a Sansetsukon and 83 with a Falchion.
Your saves are super solid and your AC is somewhere around 30 at level 9. While you only have 4 skill points per level you have a good list of class skills including perception and all social skills as well as two useful knowledges.
Edit: Were you implying that using both Crane Style and Combat Expertise gives you the benefits from your order twice?
Just noticed that the save bonuses from badge and the Eastern star order ability are both morale bonuses. This does weaken the concept as a whole considerably.
Mhm, do a morale bonus to all saves and a morale bonus to certain saves stack?
Sort of like a morale bonus to STR + a morale bonus to attack rolls, isn't it? Not too bad in and out of itself though.
Anyway, we are starting level 5 and I got a few extra feats to play with since we are using 3PP major drawbacks and each character gets a free feat at 6th level rather than any FCBs.
I rolled a very average 15 15 14 14 13 10 stat set.
Mhm, do a morale bonus to all saves and a morale bonus to certain saves stack?
Sort of like a morale bonus to STR + a morale bonus to attack rolls, isn't it? Not too bad in and out of itself though.
Em nope... kinda poor class design there me thinks. However I noticed that Dragon provides a competence bonus to attack not morale so that would work for you.
No FCB --> no real reason for being a Dwarf.
With that stat aray and a free bonus feat at level 1 I'd prolly go dual talent human and pump up those 15s to 17s. Then increase STR to 18 at level 4 and go for TWF with fists and prolly take the order of the seal for tripping goodness. Also if it's a homegame you can put a positive stat into CHA and pick up Chain Challenge and ITWF come level 6.
Also I've been wondering about that plan ability. My initial thinking was that you need to make a plan then once the conditions of the plan are met it sort of triggers as a free action. If so it would be extremely awesome but I'm really not sure if that's the intent.
Chain Challenge requires level 7, btw! It has a minimum of 1 extra challenge so I'd need to put a 14 on it to matter. It's an option to consider. Not sure if I prefer the 14 on WIS instead.
Anyway, I did what you said, except I opted out of Dual Talent to get an extra feat, even if it meant keeping lower STR.
Here are my feats at level 5:
1. Two-Weapon Fighting, Dodge, Crane Style, Precise Strike, Improved Unarmed Strike, Psychic Sensitivity
3. Power Attack
5. Crane Wing
I wanna try out the Order of the Eastern Star defensive build, but I'd be interested in a more offensive version with Pummeling Style too, which would allow me to go with Dual Talent.
Another option is using my higher level feats to get Combat Style Master and Pummeling Style and mix both styles together.
1. Two-Weapon Fighting, Dodge, Crane Style, Precise Strike, Improved Unarmed Strike, Psychic Sensitivity
3. Power Attack
5. Crane Wing
I'm pretty sure Power attack will end up negatively affecting your DPR on a challenge. At level 5 you are taking -6 to hit if you fight defensively and do TWF and PA assuming a 16 STR your to hit would be +6 or so that is more than a bit pathetic for a martial at level 5. Thus stick with the bonus to STR from dual talent ditch power attack. Delay Crane Wing and pick up WF instead.
Let me calculate it on AnyDice... let's say AC 22 for a CR7 enemy?
...
Power Attack appears to have no impact on total output while using challenge, but it has a positive effect while not doing so.
I think that's not enough to justify it over Weapon Focus.
I'd rather not have Dual Talent because I also want the skills too. We don't have many faces in the party.
PS: I'm going Unarmed with Brawling Armor and Quain Martial Artist for extra damage/accuracy and the possibility of weaving in Pummeling Style.
Both very strong choices.
So which teamwork feats are you gonna pick up and what's your reading on the plan ability?
Precise Strike and Outflank, likely.
No clue on how Squad Commander would work. I'll let the GM figure it out.
Here are the different feat plans... which one looks best?
Crane Style is a very nice +8 to AC with DR for the Order of the Eastern Star build, and it can fully ignore the attack penalty at level 8 onwards.
Order of the Eastern Star is so good not because of the powers, but for the Challenge bonus... 1+(LEVEL/4) to AC and saves vs. challenge is pretty nice, especially as an Insight bonus.
If I went with an offensive build, I'd probably go Order of the Hammer to deal a ton of nonlethal damage and free grappling, though I'd be open to a better offensive order if I found one.
Notice how both Crane-style-based featlines have Dirty Fighting to trigger cheap maneuvers.
Crane Style
1. Two-Weapon Fighting, Dodge, Crane Style, Precise Strike, Improved Unarmed Strike, Psychic Sensitivity
3. Weapon Focus (Unarmed)
5. Crane Wing
6. ITWF, Dirty Fighting, Combat Reflexes
7. Chain Challenge
9. Crane Riposte. Outflank
10. Improved Critical
11. Critical Focus
12. Double Slice, Two-Weapon Rend
Style Weave
1. Two-Weapon Fighting, Dodge, Crane Style, Precise Strike, Improved Unarmed Strike, Psychic Sensitivity
3. Dirty Fighting
5. Crane Wing
6. ITWF, Combat Style Master, Pummeling Style
7. Chain Challenge
9. Crane Riposte. Outflank
10. Pummeling Charge
11. Improved Critical
12. Double Slice, Two-Weapon Rend
Pummeling Style + Grapple - Dual Talent, Order of the Hammer
1. Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Grapple, Precise Strike, Improved Unarmed Strike
3. Weapon Focus (Unarmed)
5. Power Attack
6. ITWF, Greater Grapple, Pummeling Style
7. Chain Challenge
8. Chokehold
9. Pummeling Charge. Outflank
10. Improved Critical
11. Critical Focus
12. Double Slice, Two-Weapon Rend
Hmm on the second build you don't qualify for pummeling charge until level 12 thus I don't reall see any advantage in comparsion to the first build.
For the third build I'm really shaky on the grappling rules so I'd prefer not to comment. However consider that you have to be dealing non-lethal damage so you might want to look into enforcer and or hurtful. As you can afford a good charisma you could also look into irrepresible.
Have you considered dropping Str to 13, pumping your Dex higher, taking 1 level of Monk Master of Many Styles for Boar Style, and taking Weapon Finesse/Slashing Grace? It might be a little expensive, though...
Have you considered dropping Str to 13, pumping your Dex higher, taking 1 level of Monk Master of Many Styles for Boar Style, and taking Weapon Finesse/Slashing Grace? It might be a little expensive, though...
That'd decimate my available feats and plunge my damage for no gain.
You get +2d6 a round from boar style, and it lets you dump str to 13, which would boost your dex to 17. So you net like +2d6 damage, +1 init, +1 AC, +1 reflex, and the ability to get around damtype DRs.
That said, it does seems absurdly expensive for what you get. It also ignores your TWF focus, which you seem bent on.
If your goal is to be a high-ac high-save puncher cavalier, I feel that a Halfling Daring Champion/Order of the Eastern Star might be a better bang for your buck. You don't start out with IUS, true, but two levels of brawler can solve that while giving you another bonus feat and a form of TWF with a single weapon, great for doubling your precise strike deed damage and enabling you to take a buckler in your offhand. Halflings also get several great feats for defensive fighting, as an added bonus. The -2 STR might mean that you suffer damage-wise in the early levels, but once the precise strike deed comes online that should be more than made up for. Having a high CHA isntead of INT (and using CHA for INT feats) means that you can also get some good use from the feat Osyluth Guile in later levels
You get +2d6 a round from boar style, and it lets you dump str to 13, which would boost your dex to 17. So you net like +2d6 damage, +1 init, +1 AC, +1 reflex, and the ability to get around damtype DRs.
That said, it does seems absurdly expensive for what you get. It also ignores your TWF focus, which you seem bent on.
Boarstyle seems pretty good. When full attacking you will often be able to activate it and adding slashing to your damage types is also rather useful. However I'd only consider it for builds that don't do any other styles. Here's a build for PFS:
Dwarf Constable 11
Order of the Dragon
STR 16 DEX 16 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 5
Traits: Glory of Old/Mizu Hikari Rebel
FCB--> Extra Damage
1 TWF/IUS/Precise Strike
3 Boar Style
5 Potion Glutton
6 ITWF
7 Glory of Old
9 Lunge/Outflank
11
If your goal is to be a high-ac high-save puncher cavalier, I feel that a Halfling Daring Champion/Order of the Eastern Star might be a better bang for your buck. You don't start out with IUS, true, but two levels of brawler can solve that while giving you another bonus feat and a form of TWF with a single weapon, great for doubling your precise strike deed damage and enabling you to take a buckler in your offhand. Halflings also get several great feats for defensive fighting, as an added bonus. The -2 STR might mean that you suffer damage-wise in the early levels, but once the precise strike deed comes online that should be more than made up for. Having a high CHA isntead of INT (and using CHA for INT feats) means that you can also get some good use from the feat Osyluth Guile in later levels
Halfling Daring Champions are incredibly feat starved however and a two level brawler dip really cuts into your precise strike and Challenge Progression.
Since I've recently been obsessed with the intimidate skill I'll suggest that Order of the Cockatrice might work pretty well, especially combined with the Enforcer and Hurtful feats. If you get the Cruel enchantment you can sicken your demoralized foes, and giving the enemy -4 to hit is even better than giving yourself +4 to AC and having the enemy potentially switch targets. Cocky Cavaliers also get +2 to hit shaken foes plus some attack bonuses if you're the only one threatening a foe you challenged (maybe allowing you to use Combat Expertise and actually still hit something)
Can Crane Wing and TWF work together for a PC with less than 3 arms though?
Halfling Daring Champions are incredibly feat starved however and a two level brawler dip really cuts into your precise strike and Challenge Progression.
Pure Daring Champions are feat starved, yes. The brawler dip nets you three feats for two levels though, and while it does retard the progression of challenge/precise strike, they will still mean a combined +20 to damage by level 12, as opposed to the +12 that a non-DC cavalier would get.
Pure Daring Champions are feat starved, yes. The brawler dip nets you three feats for two levels though, and while it does retard the progression of challenge/precise strike, they will still mean a combined +20 to damage by level 12, as opposed to the +12 that a non-DC cavalier would get.
Halfling Daring Champions are incredibly feat starved however and a two level brawler dip really cuts into your precise strike and Challenge Progression.
Only if TWF is given up. It's not a bad build but it's another build.
Can Crane Wing and TWF work together for a PC with less than 3 arms though?
Totally.
You don't have to use your hands to do Unarmed Strikes, and even if you do, that hand is still considered free.
I thought that if I used the hand to make an iterative attack it counted as occupied for that round although I assumed AoOs were OK (not sure why - just seemed reasonable maybe?)
Maybe right? If you can find the source fit that ruling I'll keep forget the Crane Style angle.