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Can charm person be used to convince an NPC to kill someone dear to him, as being something the NPC doesn't ordinarily do, for any reason? Like by convincing that they are going to kill him so he must do it first, that they are an impostor and need to be killed, etc. If this is allowed to be something you can convince an NPC to do, what are the NPC's options for dealing with this? What are some of the least extreme reactions he can do to not carry it out? Are the alternate choices just as extreme for a lesser command, like if you've convinced the Orc to till a field would he need to till the field or kill himself to not have to?
In the blog that time forgot Jason responded saying that, Yes you can convince someone to kill a loved one, but that it would usually require the opposed charisma check. And if the NPC failed he could kill himself to not have to carry it out. Is this to mean that if the NPC loses the charisma check that they need to do something that drastic to get out of following the command? Or was this just one of the extreme options and the NPC has simpler options,Or was Jason wrong in his example and it's not a valid request?
I'm just hoping for a thread to gain FAQ's in. I'm not going to respond to anything as I already have put my views out there.
If time forgot the blog, it might be really helpful to provide a link - the design team doesn't have a perfect memory either.
I think the design team wants to forget that blog, or at least the last part regarding Charm Person where Jason seemed (arguably) to imply that Charmed people would rather suicide than kill their family, all completely contradictory to what is actually written in the Charm Person spell.
Here's the link: The FAQ that Time Forgot.
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I'm just hoping for a thread to gain FAQ's in. I'm not going to respond to anything as I already have put my views out there.
I wouldn't hold your breath. Not only will you rarely every get a real FAQ answer for your questions, but this is not really a hard rules question. Everybody will interpret the limits of the spell differently. If you want an entire "if;then" list for all the possible uses of charm person, you're out of luck.
Thanks, DM_Blake.
The problem is that Jason's response is not official, is not supported either by the text of the spell itself or the text of the FAQ, and isn't being rolled into future errata.
If we exclude something that a developer might have said in a forum post and go with only what is in the actual text and the actual FAQ, it's abundantly clear that it can neither compel suicide nor familial murder.
The problem is that Jason's response is not official, is not supported either by the text of the spell itself or the text of the FAQ, and isn't being rolled into future errata.
If we exclude something that a developer might have said in a forum post and go with only what is in the actual text and the actual FAQ, it's abundantly clear that it can neither compel suicide nor familial murder.
So you say. I feel if we go with only what is in the actual text and the actual FAQ, it's abundantly clear that it can compel suicide and familiar murder, if you win the CHA check. Hence the request for a FAQ. And we've had FAQ's for jumping and probably Bard masterpieces, why not something actually broken. All we'd need is some guidelines on what is allowed by the CHA check, and the options after they fail the CHA check.
An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders
You can't get them to commit suicide. You can get them to kill loved ones with an opposed CHA check. I think what Jason may have meant is that if a truly family-devoted character was given the order to kill his loved ones, he would be able to kill himself (willfully, not as a result of the spell) so that he was unable to follow through with it.
As long as you don't ask them to do something suicidal or obviously harmful, you can ask them to do pretty much anything.
Again, you're not going to get a list of "if;then" statements for every possible situation because the list would be infinite. If you come back with a specific situation, then you might get some help. As of now you're asking for the impossible. Instead of asking "how do I do this math problem?" you're asking "what is the answer to every math problem ever?"
So you say. I feel if we go with only what is in the actual text and the actual FAQ, it's abundantly clear that it can compel suicide and familiar murder, if you win the CHA check. Hence the request for a FAQ. And we've had FAQ's for jumping and probably Bard masterpieces, why not something actually broken. All we'd need is some guidelines on what is allowed by the CHA check, and the options after they fail the CHA check.The problem is that Jason's response is not official, is not supported either by the text of the spell itself or the text of the FAQ, and isn't being rolled into future errata.
If we exclude something that a developer might have said in a forum post and go with only what is in the actual text and the actual FAQ, it's abundantly clear that it can neither compel suicide nor familial murder.
We have guidelines. If it causes harm, it's an autofail. How in the world is suicide not causing harm?
An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful ordersYou can't get them to commit suicide. You can get them to kill loved ones with an opposed CHA check. I think what Jason may have meant is that if a truly family-devoted character was given the order to kill his loved ones, he would be able to kill himself (willfully, not as a result of the spell) so that he was unable to follow through with it.
As long as you don't ask them to do something suicidal or obviously harmful, you can ask them to do pretty much anything.
Again, you're not going to get a list of "if;then" statements for every possible situation because the list would be infinite. If you come back with a specific situation, then you might get some help. As of now you're asking for the impossible. Instead of asking "how do I do this math problem?" you're asking "what is the answer to every math problem ever?"
No, you can't get them to kill loved ones. That's clearly harming them.
No, you can't get them to kill loved ones. That's clearly harming them.An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful ordersYou can't get them to commit suicide. You can get them to kill loved ones with an opposed CHA check. I think what Jason may have meant is that if a truly family-devoted character was given the order to kill his loved ones, he would be able to kill himself (willfully, not as a result of the spell) so that he was unable to follow through with it.
As long as you don't ask them to do something suicidal or obviously harmful, you can ask them to do pretty much anything.
Again, you're not going to get a list of "if;then" statements for every possible situation because the list would be infinite. If you come back with a specific situation, then you might get some help. As of now you're asking for the impossible. Instead of asking "how do I do this math problem?" you're asking "what is the answer to every math problem ever?"
Yet that was the example that Jason was saying was possible with a CHA check
No, you can't get them to kill loved ones. That's clearly harming them.
I suppose it is mentally and emotionally harming them, but my reading is that you can't make them physically harm themselves.
But still, it wouldn't be "Kill your family" and they just go off and do it. You would have to put forth an incredibly compelling argument.
Yet that was the example that Jason was saying was possible with a CHA check
Either he's wrong or you're misinterpreting his words. The case is black and white in the spell description, no ambiguity whatsoever in the slightest.
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A) Jason is human
B) Humans are fallible
C) Postings in forums aren't rules
Be careful relying on quotes from game developers in forums, unless it's put into errata, it's just another person posting.
I'm not discounting their opinion, but these games are more or less made by committee, and the errata is reviewed by more than a single person.
I suggest using the spell as written (no harmful actions)-some people are slightly more lenient and allow the target to attempt non-damaging actions like grappling or placing themselves in the way of attacks...
Up to the GM, but as written, it literally disallows harmful actions.
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Too many people try to treat Charm spells like Dominate spells. They don't work like that.
The creature becomes friendly. It'll do things that friends do for one another, but it's still free willed.
As to what that includes, it will always be up to your GM. There cannot be an FAQ for this, and as a GM I would argue that I don't want open-ended questions like this FAQ'd.
So I have two questions about this.
1) Is this article considered official?
2) Are PDT posts clarifying a FAQ official?
1) No.
2) No.
Now that I see his post I understand what he's saying. His point was that if through some way you managed to convince him to kill his family, he could autonomously end his own life to prevent it from happening. That sounds like a very specific corner case and not just a broad "Use this first level spell as a save or die!" explanation.
Yes, and I also feel that Jason meant it as one example, not the only example.
It's like he meant to say "but killing loved ones is probably always going to require a check, and might not even work (the creature might do any number of alternative things to avoid killing loved ones. For just one example, it might take its own life instead; its not your puppet after all)."
But he didn't say that so now some people seem to be implying that the "save or die" application of the Charm Person is supported by official PDT posts.
I'm always amused that people keep bringing up the suicide bit while obviously ignoring the "its not your puppet" bit.
I completely agree DM_Blake and Zhangar. I feel like it would have to be a very specific situation and the spell was cast on a very specific person. Such as Russell Crowe in any movie he's ever been in.
I think Jason's post did not mean that you could use Charm Person to induce suicide, I think he was just using that as a way of showing that the Charmed is "not your puppet."
A longer, hopefully clearer, version of his point I see as something like this:
* If * you could push the Charmed person into doing something they would consider horrible, they won't do that and just might do something totally unwanted or unexpected instead. For example, killing themselves.
Regardless, unless one treats thread posts as rules, it doesn't matter any more than Pluto's demotion to non-planet status.
If we DO treat thread posts as rules... hoo boy.
Jumping to that as a firm conclusion requires a really strange reading on the order of a cop saying 'you should leave earlier and you won't have to speed' precluding going via a different route or rescheduling your appointment.
Who is this addressed to, and regarding what?
This is a copy-paste from somewhere. Was this post in error?
The trouble with Jason's post is that it implies it is sometimes possible to persuade someone that he ought to murder his family with Charm Person, and that the effect is so powerful he might even kill himself rather than simply disobey. A lot of us would like to have the victim reject the command automatically on the grounds that it's "harmful".
The trouble with Jason's post is that it implies it is sometimes possible to persuade someone that he ought to murder his family with Charm Person, and that the effect is so powerful he might even kill himself rather than simply disobey. A lot of us would like to have the victim reject the command automatically on the grounds that it's "harmful".
*raises hand*
It's a fun spell to use, even if restrictively read.
I use it for free room and board, occasionally I might steal a horse and cart with it.
Get past guards... you know, simple stuff. It's great for that.
"Hey, nice halberd buddy, can I see it?" heh heh heh...
The trouble with Jason's post is that it implies it is sometimes possible to persuade someone that he ought to murder his family with Charm Person, and that the effect is so powerful he might even kill himself rather than simply disobey. A lot of us would like to have the victim reject the command automatically on the grounds that it's "harmful".*raises hand*
It's a fun spell to use, even if restrictively read.
I use it for free room and board, occasionally I might steal a horse and cart with it.
Get past guards... you know, simple stuff. It's great for that.
"Hey, nice halberd buddy, can I see it?" heh heh heh...
Exactly. It's a 1st level spell, use it like one. It's not a save-or-die, no matter how clever your roleplay is.
Exactly. It's a 1st level spell, use it like one. It's not a save-or-die, no matter how clever your roleplay is.The trouble with Jason's post is that it implies it is sometimes possible to persuade someone that he ought to murder his family with Charm Person, and that the effect is so powerful he might even kill himself rather than simply disobey. A lot of us would like to have the victim reject the command automatically on the grounds that it's "harmful".*raises hand*
It's a fun spell to use, even if restrictively read.
I use it for free room and board, occasionally I might steal a horse and cart with it.
Get past guards... you know, simple stuff. It's great for that.
"Hey, nice halberd buddy, can I see it?" heh heh heh...
Indeed.
I do LIKE this spell, you can really get into some trouble with it, fun trouble.
Exactly. It's a 1st level spell, use it like one. It's not a save-or-die, no matter how clever your roleplay is.The trouble with Jason's post is that it implies it is sometimes possible to persuade someone that he ought to murder his family with Charm Person, and that the effect is so powerful he might even kill himself rather than simply disobey. A lot of us would like to have the victim reject the command automatically on the grounds that it's "harmful".*raises hand*
It's a fun spell to use, even if restrictively read.
I use it for free room and board, occasionally I might steal a horse and cart with it.
Get past guards... you know, simple stuff. It's great for that.
"Hey, nice halberd buddy, can I see it?" heh heh heh...
There are many save or die lv1 spells.
There are many save or die lv1 spells.Exactly. It's a 1st level spell, use it like one. It's not a save-or-die, no matter how clever your roleplay is.The trouble with Jason's post is that it implies it is sometimes possible to persuade someone that he ought to murder his family with Charm Person, and that the effect is so powerful he might even kill himself rather than simply disobey. A lot of us would like to have the victim reject the command automatically on the grounds that it's "harmful".*raises hand*
It's a fun spell to use, even if restrictively read.
I use it for free room and board, occasionally I might steal a horse and cart with it.
Get past guards... you know, simple stuff. It's great for that.
"Hey, nice halberd buddy, can I see it?" heh heh heh...
Indeed there are. Not this one though, this is very very flexible, and therein lies it's power.
There are many save or die lv1 spells.
I meant literal save or die spells, not "this spell can indirectly cause your death" i.e. sleep or color spray.
The only way I see this as doing something so horrible would be when cast several times over many days and combined with many Bluff checks until the person is so confused that he goes mad on his own accord. i.e. Iago and Othello.