I would be trying to hard not to make that into a Kobold or goblin and end up as Dobby
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People, don't take the bait. That way banning lies.
On topic, I've got a Jalmerani priest who owns a halfling body slave. I don't make much of it, but it is an interesting piece of milieu. Vudra has a history of slavery with their industries staffed by humanoid slaves and their palaces and marvels crafted by geniekind.
My friend plays a slave whose noble house has loaned her for the Society as a thanks for services rendered. The catch being that should she become famous and powerful in their service then the more power for her house.
I've thought about making an indentured labourer for one of the factions. A paladin who takes his debt seriously. An Osiriani Pally for Scarab Sages mebbe.
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People, don't take the bait. That way banning lies.
On topic, I've got a Jalmerani priest who owns a halfling body slave. I don't make much of it, but it is an interesting piece of milieu. Vudra has a history of slavery with their industries staffed by humanoid slaves and their palaces and marvels crafted by geniekind.
My friend plays a slave whose noble house has loaned her for the Society as a thanks for services rendered. The catch being that should she become famous and powerful in their service then the more power for her house.
I've thought about making an indentured labourer for one of the factions. A paladin who takes his debt seriously. An Osiriani Pally for Scarab Sages mebbe.
drat! I thought I was the only person doing this! sigh... all good ideas are not unique...
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My friend plays a slave whose noble house has loaned her for the Society as a thanks for services rendered. The catch being that should she become famous and powerful in their service then the more power for her house.
I've thought about making an indentured labourer for one of the factions. A paladin who takes his debt seriously. An Osiriani Pally for Scarab Sages mebbe.
How is equipment and expendables factored in? Are they considered 'irrelevant' in the greater term of service? Or is it considered a 'discount' that the Society gets from the providing noble house/merchant/alien space entity/etc. for the indenture?
Because that sounds like it could be a neat idea for a concept, especially if you could work in the idea that perhaps they were paying off a Raise Dead or Resurrection or something?
EDIT: Also, slavery can take many, many forms. RL historical equivalents range from United States history, to Roman, to Greek, to Norse, to various Asian cultures. In several of those cases, it was not a race issue as much as a class issue.
In fact, there's at least one scenario out there where characters that behave in a certain fashion can *earn* the privilege of being effective slaves for their downtime until they spend PP to buy it off.
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My friend plays a slave whose noble house has loaned her for the Society as a thanks for services rendered.that sounds like it could be a neat idea for a concept, especially if you could work in the idea that perhaps they were paying off a Raise Dead or Resurrection or something?yes, sounds like a neat idea.
I may have to steal this... ;)
I have a friend (perhaps he'll post) that plays a Halfling named "8255", which is the identification number tattooed on her when she was born.
And then you go shoot down the idea that there's no racial aspect to slavery in Golarion.
Cause that, right there, that's racial chattel slavery. Not "Transatlantic Slave Trade", perhaps, but then the worst excesses of US slavery took place after the slave trade was stopped.
If the slavery in Cheliax were specifically oriented toward enslaving people based upon skin color, like the Garundi, then I think you'd be looking at a parallel institution. But, while halflings may be preferred slaves in Cheliax, I don't think slavery there is limited to halflings.
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And then you go shoot down the idea that there's no racial aspect to slavery in Golarion.
Cause that, right there, that's racial chattel slavery. Not "Transatlantic Slave Trade", perhaps, but then the worst excesses of US slavery took place after the slave trade was stopped.
We could go into Godwin territory and point out that ethnicity was also used as a criteria for a particularly vicious group of individuals.
Nefreet's comment can be taken as race-neutral, if one substitutes the race mentioned for any other race, it still holds valid in-setting. It is being used as a descriptor.
ie, 'I have a friend (perhaps he'll post) that plays a *insert character race/background/creed/etc* named "8255" (or something similar), which is the identification number tattooed on him/her/it when she/he/it was born.'
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Often heard at a table in my area, "Don't kill 'em, they're worth more alive!".
This sometimes causes the Andoran faction players to pause - and stop swinging with non-lethal damage. After all, dead prisoners don't make good slaves. Then it get's to be a race to see if the Andorans can kill them before the Osirion/Qadirian/Cheliaxians can subdue them.
Think about this the next time you turn prisoners over to "the authorities"... what the heck are they going to DO with them?
Taking this a step further, during one game where the PCs are escorting a group of captive non-humans to be interrogated, my PC grew to like the little monsters. So she asked what was the plans for them after the Society finished getting info from them. She was told "we'll dispose of them " meaning they were to be killed. SO, she spent some PP and bought a vanity and now uses them as "Foreign Contacts" and is training them as back-up singers (and is responsible for them - as her slaves if they do anything like set fire to the building, she's responsible).
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If the slaves are treated as less than human, it's chattel slavery.
In my experience, that's exactly how Cheliax's slavery works at the table. Yes, they have slaves other than halflings, but halflings are specifically viewed as subhuman.
I dont think it's unwarranted or unexpected for players to bring real-world preconceptions about slavery into a game like this for this very reason. If you are making other players uncomfortable, you are impacting their enjoyment, so I would strongly insist that anyone who wants to own slaves in-game consider very carefully how they will roleplay it.
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I'm pleased this discussion has progressed nicely since I last checked in.
I've been planning on making a slave PC for a while now, someone who has no desire to escape and is honored, really, that all these Liberty's Edge folks keep wanting to help him, but he's just fine with his lot in life.
Honestly, the presence of slavery in Golarion is one of my favorite aspects of the setting. It's played historically, and doesn't shy away from truths about how humans actually treat (and treated) one another by giving them allegory in the fictional past of this world. In a culture where any mention of slavery is always focused on a single, abominable instance of it in our recent history, it's hard to get one's head around the fact that the institution of slavery has been done differently in other cultures. Pathfinder's setting provides an opportunity to examine that from a different perspective, and spice up the roleplay with topics that don't often come up in other fantasy games.
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So I've been meaning to get this post together for a while and this thread is as good a place for it as any:
Yes, slavery is evil in Golarion.
First, let's start with the CRB definitions of good and evil. (This shouldn't be necessary, but some people seem to think they're just team names in the game and not actual words that mean things.) "Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings," which is in no way compatible with slavery. On the other hand, evil characters "debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit." Evil implies "hurting" or "oppressing" others. Debasing, hurting, and oppressing others - generally for profit - is as good a descripton of slavery as I can think of.
"Slavery in Golarion isn't that bad." While there are things like indentured servitude and time-limited enslavement for crimes, all of the places that have them also have full on chattel slavery as well. And while not exclusively racist, there is a racial component - halflings are generally enslaved everywhere slavery exists.
"Sarenrae is good, and also the main religion of Qadira, where there's lots of slavery." No. Most obviously, if Qadira's overall morality was the same as Sarenrae's, they'd have the same alignment - but Qadira is not good-aligned. The section about Sarenrae in Faiths of Purity also states, "Though slavery might exist in your culture, it is an abomination to you." For a more thorough takedown of this, see this post from James Jacobs - to summarize, the church of Sarenrae does not run Qadira, and the church in Qadira has itself slipped quite far from Sarenrae's actual teachings.
There's also the fact that all the anti-slavery groups in the setting are good-aligned. There are exactly three good-aligned human nations in the setting - LG Lastwall, with the major goal of fighting the CE orcs of Belzken; LG Mendev, fights CE demons; and NG Andoran. The Eagle Knights, as an organization, are LG. The Bellflower Network, from the Faction Guide: "Freeing halfling slaves and moving them to countries without slavery, like Andoran, puts the faction firmly on the good side of the spectrum." If opposing something is defined as good, it can not be seriously argued that that thing is not evil.
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Two reminders:
1) The Grand Lodge Scriptorium uses slave labor to pen the Pathfinder Chronicles. (Indeed, we remove the tongues of the people we purchase on the slave blocks and then we place them under a life-long gaes to copy any printed material set before them.) So long as your PC is a Pathfinder, and he hasn't freed the Society's own slaves back there, you shouldn't get your knickers in too much of a twist.
2) This topic never, ever ends well. People create characters who push limits. Other people conflate slavery on Golarion for slavery in American history. People decide to push each other's buttons on the forum. Chris and Liz delete posts and warn people, and eventually lock the thread.
WHAT!!!!!
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How about running a PC who is a slave?No. All PFS player characters are Pathfinders. If you're not a Pathfinder you would not be sent on the missions given in PFS scenarios.
Why is it you believe that someone can't be both? Does being a Pathfinder have a membership requirement that all members be free men and women?
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Which is kind of a contradicition in terms since slaves don't get paid.How about running a PC who is a slave?
The Master has an obligation to the PFS - and so has assigned me to fill that obligation in their place. This allows the Master to fulfill other obligations.
Profession: "Slave" for day job rolls...
From Wikipedia article "Slavery in ancient Rome"
"...Roman slaves could hold property which, despite the fact that it belonged to their masters, they were allowed to use as if it were their own.[2] Skilled or educated slaves were allowed to earn their own money, and might hope to save enough to buy their freedom..."
It was not unknown for a Roman slave to buy themselves free... to become freemen thru their own labor.
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How about running a PC who is a slave?No. All PFS player characters are Pathfinders. If you're not a Pathfinder you would not be sent on the missions given in PFS scenarios.In theory, there's no reason the slave couldn't be a Pathfinder.
OTOH, there has to be some pretty strong hold the owner has over the character, because the slave would have to be free to travel all over Golarion on his own as well as allowed to be armed (or otherwise combat effective). Which isn't unknown for slaves, though the cases I'm aware of tended to be more slave in name only - High status slave soldiers or the like.
I guess there are a lot of different things dropped into the "slave" category.
more from Wikipedia:
Slavery in ancient Rome played an important role in society and the economy. Besides manual labor, slaves performed many domestic services, and might be employed at highly skilled jobs and professions. Teachers, accountants, and physicians were often slaves. Greek slaves in particular might be highly educated. Unskilled slaves, or those sentenced to slavery as punishment, worked on farms, in mines, and at mills. Their living conditions were brutal, and their lives short.
Slaves were considered property under Roman law and had no legal personhood. Unlike Roman citizens, they could be subjected to corporal punishment, sexual exploitation (prostitutes were often slaves), torture, and summary execution. The testimony of a slave could not be accepted in a court of law unless the slave was tortured—a practice based on the belief that slaves in a position to be privy to their masters' affairs would be too virtuously loyal to reveal damaging evidence unless coerced. Over time, however, slaves gained increased legal protection, including the right to file complaints against their masters.
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How about running a PC who is a slave?No. All PFS player characters are Pathfinders. If you're not a Pathfinder you would not be sent on the missions given in PFS scenarios.In theory, there's no reason the slave couldn't be a Pathfinder.
OTOH, there has to be some pretty strong hold the owner has over the character, because the slave would have to be free to travel all over Golarion on his own as well as allowed to be armed (or otherwise combat effective). Which isn't unknown for slaves, though the cases I'm aware of tended to be more slave in name only - High status slave soldiers or the like.
There are no end of reasons why a slave couldn't be a Pathfinder. What kind of "slave" has three years to take off for training and can travel freely on missions all over Golarion? If the owner does have some kind of hold over them despite that, what happens when they get a sending in the middle of a mission informing them they've been sold off to the Aspis Consortium or whatever? The leaders of the Society (other than Snidely and co. I guess) are not dumb - they'd be aware of that possibility and there's no way they could be trusted as a Pathfinder agent.
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That's also a b@#*#+#$ cop out :-)I think Mortika has it right - we're crossing over real world feelings into a fictional world. If your characters feel this way, there's a faction for you. Otherwise, other people, who can have completely lawful characters, are able to play in a fictional world with fictional rules, where slavery is legal and canon.
If you think someone saying 'within this world it's allowed and I'm playing a character in this world' is a cop out, maybe you have less of a problem with the player and more a problem with the world itself.
And a question, for the sake of conversation: If a writer includes a scenario with slavery in it, are they also 'copping out' by saying 'Well, it's Cheliax, people own slaves'?
The adventure writer including that in the scenario is not forcing everyine else at the table to hold their tongue and pretend they're okay with it. They are not forcing every paladon and every Edge character not to roleplay because doing so would be disruptive goven what their character would very reasonably do.
For the record, I am NOT necessarily saying that no slaveholding character should be allowed. It could be accomplished well with tact and grace.
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How about running a PC who is a slave?No. All PFS player characters are Pathfinders. If you're not a Pathfinder you would not be sent on the missions given in PFS scenarios.
Hi!
I'm a Pathfinder and a slave. OH! and a human (Ulfen). and a woman. and a Rogue (Knife Master) 7/Fighter 1|
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There are no end of reasons why a slave couldn't be a Pathfinder. What kind of "slave" has three years to take off for training and can travel freely on missions all over Golarion? If the owner does have some kind of hold over them despite that, what happens when they get a sending in the middle of a mission informing them they've been sold off to the Aspis Consortium or whatever? The leaders of the Society (other than Snidely and co. I guess) are not dumb - they'd be aware of that possibility and there's no way they could be trusted as a Pathfinder agent.
They're owned by the Decemvirate, of course. I agree that the society wouldn't allow a non-member of the society to send a slave to them to become a Pathfinder - that's absurd. But a Venture Captain's slave, or a slave owned by the international corporation that is the Pathfinder Society could be relied upon to be a very loyal member.
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There are no end of reasons why a slave couldn't be a Pathfinder. What kind of "slave" has three years to take off for training and can travel freely on missions all over Golarion? If the owner does have some kind of hold over them despite that, what happens when they get a sending in the middle of a mission informing them they've been sold off to the Aspis Consortium or whatever? The leaders of the Society (other than Snidely and co. I guess) are not dumb - they'd be aware of that possibility and there's no way they could be trusted as a Pathfinder agent.How about running a PC who is a slave?No. All PFS player characters are Pathfinders. If you're not a Pathfinder you would not be sent on the missions given in PFS scenarios.In theory, there's no reason the slave couldn't be a Pathfinder.
OTOH, there has to be some pretty strong hold the owner has over the character, because the slave would have to be free to travel all over Golarion on his own as well as allowed to be armed (or otherwise combat effective). Which isn't unknown for slaves, though the cases I'm aware of tended to be more slave in name only - High status slave soldiers or the like.
?? what ??
You don't trust me, because I'm a slave? what?There is no more chance of my "switching sides" by being sold in the middle of a mission than one of my companions. Less in fact.
edit: from the Wikipedia article I quoted above, "... the belief that slaves in a position to be privy to their masters' affairs would be too virtuously loyal to reveal damaging evidence unless coerced...."
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I would offer that some folks may be conflating what slavery is (or was) by trying to draw distinctions where they might not have existed historically.
While the most recent examples of chattel slavery do come from the United States, there are some folks in this thread that are trying to state that more ancient forms of slavery weren't as bad or cruel. I think this is largely a historically unfounded view. In the Greek, Roman and later Byzantine eras, slaves were largely treated as their owners saw fit. While the traditional 'House Slave' may have been treated 'considerably well' that description is very biased and normally originates with the owning cultures view. Most ancient slaves were not 'House Slaves' and were forced to toil in fields and/or participate in heavy labor such as mining or construction. In addition we do know that slaves in the Classical Era were subjected to mis-treatment, beatings and death.
By way of example, in the Roman Republic and later Empire, Slaves were solely property, not persons under Roman law. A slave had no rights and no moral standing. Typical punishments including flogging, branding and also hobbling (shattering the ankle) and eye gouging. Slaves also had no control over their bodies sexually (we won't discuss this any further). With a few notable exceptions, such as the Emperor Claudius, few lasting reforms were ever undertaken in Rome to improve the treatment of slaves. Many modern depictions of classical slaves as well-treated house slaves is largely exaggerated, and even house slaves were subjected to cruel and inhuman treatment. During his reign, the Emperor Hadrian (117-138 AD) attempted to outlaw the execution of slaves by their masters, but this did more to curtail the practice than to end it entirely.
From my own study, there doesn't seem to have been any age when slaves weren't fully abused, mis-treated, tortured or killed. To argue otherwise is to do so in the face of a large body of historical evidence to the contrary.
?? what ??
You don't trust me, because I'm a slave? what?
There is no more chance of my "switching sides" by being sold in the middle of a mission than one of my companions. Less in fact.edit: from the Wikipedia article I quoted above, "... the belief that slaves in a position to be privy to their masters' affairs would be too virtuously loyal to reveal damaging evidence unless coerced...."
The risk of a slave being sold while on mission may be low. But the risk of disloyalty or sabotage could be high depending on the slave's relationship with his or her owners. Getting coerced service from someone really isn't the same as willing service and comes with risks.
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From my own study, there doesn't seem to have been any age when slaves weren't fully abused, mis-treated, tortured or killed. To argue otherwise is to do so in the face of a large body of historical evidence to the contrary.
Good thing Golarion's history is not Earth's history.
There is quite a spectrum with regards to how slaves in Golarion are treated, with probably a disproportionate amount of well-treated slaves compared to Earth's history.
Consider this: at no time in Earth's history were there ever large-scale organizations (or nations) that opposed cruel slavery as there are in Golarion. That fact alone would drive the ratio of cruelty-free slavery up, since nobody wants their home burned to the ground for having a house-trained Halfling.
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The risk of a slave being sold while on mission may be low. But the risk of disloyalty or sabotage could be high depending on the slave's relationship with his or her owners. Getting coerced service from someone really isn't the same as willing service and comes with risks.
?? what ??
You don't trust me, because I'm a slave? what?
There is no more chance of my "switching sides" by being sold in the middle of a mission than one of my companions. Less in fact.edit: from the Wikipedia article I quoted above, "... the belief that slaves in a position to be privy to their masters' affairs would be too virtuously loyal to reveal damaging evidence unless coerced...."
check out the history of the Janissaries in the Ottoman Empire sometime.
or the Egyptian mamluks...
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From my own study, there doesn't seem to have been any age when slaves weren't fully abused, mis-treated, tortured or killed. To argue otherwise is to do so in the face of a large body of historical evidence to the contrary.Good thing Golarion's history is not Earth's history.
There is quite a spectrum with regards to how slaves in Golarion are treated, with probably a disproportionate amount of well-treated slaves compared to Earth's history.
Consider this: at no time in Earth's history were there ever large-scale organizations (or nations) that opposed cruel slavery as there are in Golarion. That fact alone would drive the ratio of cruelty-free slavery up, since nobody wants their home burned to the ground for having a house-trained Halfling.
Really? Is that what you tell the families of the approximately 360,000 Union soldiers that lost their lives during the American Civil War? Fallacious statement-"at no time in Earth's history were there ever large-scale organizations (or nations) that opposed cruel slavery as there are in Golarion."
But this is why the game is fantasy. History is harsh, but then again by any real usage of the word, so is slavery. But hey let's role play it anyway and make a light-hearted joke out of it.
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?? what ??
You don't trust me, because I'm a slave? what?
There is no more chance of my "switching sides" by being sold in the middle of a mission than one of my companions. Less in fact.
Say it's the middle of a mission, and you get a sending from your master. "You have been sold to Dorianna Ouidda. After your mission, meet her at [this here address] in Absalom. Do not inform the Pathfinders."
What do you do?