| Celanian |
I'm toying with an idea to balance the various classes in Pathfinder.
In my campaign, my house rule is that nobody has to keep track of treasure. They simply get WBL at every level. So my balance idea is for more powerful classes to get less WBL and weaker classes to get more WBL.
Here is a first attempt at this:
Fighter/Rogue: +1 WBL at levels 4+. So a level 4 fighter would have level 5 WBL for example
Paladin/Invulnerable Rager Barbarian: -1 WBL at levels 2+. So a 4th level paladin would have level 3 WBL.
Regular Summoner: -1 WBL at levels 2-4, -2 WBL at levels 5-12, and -1 WBL at levels 13+
Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Witch: -1 WBL at levels 7-12, -2 WBL at levels 13+
Sorcerer/Oracle/Arcanist: -1 WBL at levels 8-13, -2 WBL at levels 14+
Other classes: Regular WBL
If any class proves in play to be stronger or weaker than baseline, I can adjust WBL to balance.
Does this idea make sense? Any hidden pitfalls?
| Celanian |
I'm taking fullcasters and using 1-3, 4-6, and 7-9 level spellcasting as my breakpoints for WBL penalties. So the level that the caster can cast 4th level spells is 1 penalty and the level they can cast 7th level spells is another penalty.
Paladins start taking penalties at level 2 because divine grace plus smite plus lay on hands is just that powerful.
I agree that original monk should be like fighter/rogue and get more cash, but unchained monk seems pretty good to me and I don't feel it needs any help.
| WatersLethe |
I think you'd quickly run into problems with how they spend their wealth. Crafting feats suddenly become mandatory for casters and all players are suddenly more incentivized to steal whatever they can from NPCs.
It also removes a good portion of the fun from the game, like looting a dragon's hoard, or receiving payment from the king for slaying a band of giants.
I just don't see how it can work unless you bar them from participating in any sort of economically beneficial activity.
| Celanian |
There's no looting in my campaign except for plot items. At any given level, you have your WBL guidelines which refreshes every level. It's working out pretty well so far except that I'm having a little difficulty balancing consumables vs regular magic items.
As for crafting, I took care of that by allowing anyone to take a crafting feat without any prerequisites. A caster can explain it by crafting the item themselves. A non-caster can explain it by saying they have a good contact and friend who will provide discount magic items to them during downtime.
Nobody actually misses the looting so far in the campaign. It actually seems to make the players happier since it removes the tedious accounting and need to constantly buy/sell the stuff you loot.
| WatersLethe |
If you've subsumed the impact of crafting into your adjusted WBL chart, and none of the players are concerned about tracking money or collecting treasure, then I don't think you'll have any issues with your system. With consumables, you might have to just give more as treasure or allow scribing scrolls and potion making to be free, but limit it to a certain number.
It does seem like it's a system that would be very specific to your table, though, and I would definitely make an effort to see if anyone is feeling hard done by it. A wizard could start to feel bad (in character or out) if they realize the reward for their equal effort is less than for others.
Also keep an eye out for any players who want to RP a thief, or simply a greedy person, and can't because your system blocks them.
| Rub-Eta |
Sadly, adjusting WBL won't help you. It's not the access of gold a full caster character have that puts them above the other classes. It's what's within the classes.
Adjusting the WBL will only adjust how well they fill their role, which means that martials still deal in damage out-put while casters still deal in everything.
| Celanian |
Just the Invulnerable Rager archetype gets weakened. Regular barbarians get normal WBL.
Paladins always seemed better to me than the other non-full casters other than summoner. Between Divine Grace, Smites, really good spells, and Lay on Hands, they seem to have no real weaknesses other than their code. The argument that they're only overpowered vs evil seems weak to me. After all, the vast majority of tougher foes that a "typical" adventuring party faces are evil. Realistically, the player will also ask the GM what kind of campaign they're going to be playing before it starts. If the GM says you'll be facing a demonic invasion or undead infestation as the overall theme, that's when a player typically picks Paladin. If the GM says the campaign is about stopping a soulless horde of neutral cold logic robots, the player will probably go with some other class at that point.
| Milo v3 |
Just the Invulnerable Rager archetype gets weakened. Regular barbarians get normal WBL.
Paladins always seemed better to me than the other non-full casters other than summoner. Between Divine Grace, Smites, really good spells, and Lay on Hands, they seem to have no real weaknesses other than their code. The argument that they're only overpowered vs evil seems weak to me. After all, the vast majority of tougher foes that a "typical" adventuring party faces are evil. Realistically, the player will also ask the GM what kind of campaign they're going to be playing before it starts. If the GM says you'll be facing a demonic invasion or undead infestation as the overall theme, that's when a player typically picks Paladin. If the GM says the campaign is about stopping a soulless horde of neutral cold logic robots, the player will probably go with some other class at that point.
The general consensus is that paladin is a balanced class, and I would agree with this. It's not even overpowered vs. evil. It is powerful against undead and fiends though if your Entire campaign is based around them, but even then smite evil only has a limited amount of uses per day.
| Celanian |
In my experience, paladin has been at the high end of non-fullcaster/summoner. It's not just offensively. Their defenses are about the best in the game with great HP, saves, AC, and healing. Smite Evil may have limited uses, but Oath of Vengeance helps with that and it's typically the most dangerous foes who get smited anyway. Normal minion level foes can be dealt with regularly.
| AwesomenessDog |
Celanian wrote:The general consensus is that paladin is a balanced class, and I would agree with this. It's not even overpowered vs. evil. It is powerful against undead and fiends though if your Entire campaign is based around them, but even then smite evil only has a limited amount of uses per day.Just the Invulnerable Rager archetype gets weakened. Regular barbarians get normal WBL.
Paladins always seemed better to me than the other non-full casters other than summoner. Between Divine Grace, Smites, really good spells, and Lay on Hands, they seem to have no real weaknesses other than their code. The argument that they're only overpowered vs evil seems weak to me. After all, the vast majority of tougher foes that a "typical" adventuring party faces are evil. Realistically, the player will also ask the GM what kind of campaign they're going to be playing before it starts. If the GM says you'll be facing a demonic invasion or undead infestation as the overall theme, that's when a player typically picks Paladin. If the GM says the campaign is about stopping a soulless horde of neutral cold logic robots, the player will probably go with some other class at that point.
At the same time, almost every paladin will blow their smite before even reading the boss to see if he is evil and at mid level range (especially if the boss is a dragon/undead/evil outsider) it will start chunking damage left and right. I would change the time when it has -1 to between levels 5 and 15 since most fighters have their feats synergizing by that point and the rogue probably realized that ranged is the best tactic (if he's still alive) by then.
| Celanian |
I can agree with a higher level before the -1 penalty for paladins kicks in. At very low levels, no class except maybe summoner is that much more powerful than any other class. So maybe level 4-5 might be a better starting point.
I haven't run a campaign with level 15+ characters yet, so I don't know if I need to remove the penalty for paladins at that point.
| alexd1976 |
Forgive me for the newbie question, but what is WBL?
Wealth by level.
It's a chart where you look at the level of the character, then next to it there is a number. That number is the gold piece value of all the gear/property/goods the character owns.
I tend to put as much of it as possible into adventuring gear (magic armor and such), some people like to build giant castles and towns...
It varies from person to person (how they use it, I mean).
It's not a rule, it's a guideline, but it is pretty good for the game if the GM uses it.