Animal Fury


Rules Questions


what action is the bite attack ? can i use it twice (greater & rapid grapple ).

Animal Fury (Ex)
Benefit: While raging, the barbarian gains a bite attack. If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at the barbarian's full base attack bonus –5. If the bite hits, it deals 1d4 points of damage (assuming the barbarian is Medium; 1d3 points of damage if Small) plus half the barbarian's Strength modifier. A barbarian can make a bite attack as part of the action to maintain or break free from a grapple. This attack is resolved before the grapple check is made. If the bite attack hits, any grapple checks made by the barbarian against the target this round are at a +2 bonus.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

You can't use the bite more than once, as you have only one bite attack.

So your turn with Rapid Grapple looks like:

If you start your turn grappling:
Bite -> damage as a standard action
if successful Grapple at +2 as a move action to damage, move, etc (maintained)
if successful Rapid Grapple at +2 as a swift to damage, move, etc.

If you didn't start your turn grappling:
Grapple as a move
If successful Grapple as a move to damage, move, etc.
if successful Rapid Grapple at +2 as a swift to damage, move, etc.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I think you can actually manage up to 6 Bites in one round.

As long as you start the round grappling, you can make up to 3 checks to maintain the grapple. By the text of Animal Fury, you can make a Bite attack as part of that action. So that'll get you 3 uses.

The text says nothing about that Bite replacing the option to "inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon" when you successfully maintain the grapple. Bite is a natural attack, so it should be a valid choice there.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

ZZTRaider, welcome to table variances then.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Oh yes, I'm sure there will be table variation.

To me, though, it's pretty clear that the specific rules for Animal Fury and dealing damage on a successful grapple check override the general rules for not using a single natural attack more than once.

You have an ability that says that whenever you make a grapple check, you can make a free Bite attack first. On a successful maintain, you always have the option to deal damage (among other choices). Finally, you have two feats that let you maintain a grapple up to three times in one round. The simplest reading is that these abilities do exactly what they say they do.

A high level monk with Feral Combat Training could potentially Bite seven times in a round using Flurry of Blows, so there is clearly a precedent for using a single natural attack multiple times in one turn.


Why would you be able to check to Maintain the Grapple more than once per round? Don't the feats just change the type of action required?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

ZZTRaider wrote:
whenever you make a grapple check, you can make a free Bite attack first.

It doesn't say anything remotely close to that.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Brf wrote:
Why would you be able to check to Maintain the Grapple more than once per round? Don't the feats just change the type of action required?

Greater Grapple explicitly states, "This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks."

Rapid Grappler allows you to make another grapple check as a swift action "whenever you use Greater Grapple to successfully maintain a grapple as a move action".

As long as you use these grapple checks against the target you are already grappling, you are maintaining the grapple.

James Risner wrote:
ZZTRaider wrote:
whenever you make a grapple check, you can make a free Bite attack first.
It doesn't say anything remotely close to that.

How else would you interpret this?

"A barbarian can make a bite attack as part of the action to maintain or break free from a grapple. This attack is resolved before the grapple check is made."

Are you taking an action to maintain a grapple? If so, you can make a free bite attack as part of that action. That attack occurs before the grapple check.

You could argue that since Greater Grapple states that "you only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple", you're only maintaining the grapple up until the first successful check. So, if you fail the first attempt, which clearly gets a bite, the second is also attempting to maintain and therefore gets a bite as well.

That's the only place where I see table variation coming into play. Regardless, that has nothing to do with only having a single bite attack, as you initially suggested.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

ZZTRaider wrote:

How else would you interpret this?

Are you taking an action to maintain a grapple? If so, you can make a free bite attack as part of that action.

Strike the free, and we are good. No where in there does it say you get a free attack. You only have one bite weapon and you don't get additional attacks from natural weapons. So once you have used your bite you can't take a second bite.

I'm fine with table variance.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Hm. I mean, I can see your reasoning, but I still feel like this is a clear case of specific vs general, as Animal Fury tells you that you can make the bite attack in that particular situation.

Would you similarly rule that a character with 10 BAB (and thus only two attacks normally) could only use the Deal Damage option of a successful grapple check the first two times in a round, and must select a different option the third time? Does that change if the character has Haste?

I feel like if it were intended to be limited by how many attacks you can normally make, Rapid Grappler would call that out to clarify. (Rapid Grappler is the only way to get the extra grapple check that doesn't also require a high enough BAB to have iteratives to cover the extra attack.)


Well, the feat does say

Quote:
A barbarian can make a bite attack as part of the action...

which reads to me to be a free attack...

On the other hand it says:
Quote:
If the bite attack hits, any grapple checks made...

which is implying that that one free attack applies to _all_ of the grapple checks, so it seems to me that you should be getting only that one free attack per round.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

ZZTRaider wrote:
Would you similarly rule that a character with 10 BAB (and thus only two attacks normally) could only use the Deal Damage option of a successful grapple check the first two times in a round,

No because that isn't a natural attack.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Brf wrote:

On the other hand it says:

Quote:
If the bite attack hits, any grapple checks made...
which is implying that that one free attack applies to _all_ of the grapple checks, so it seems to me that you should be getting only that one free attack per round.

That just seems to be stating the duration and effect of the bonus from successfully biting. I don't see how that would prevent additional bites.

The +2 bonus would not stack, since it has the same source, so the only benefit is additional damage. (Or, if you missed the first bite, another attempt to get the +2 bonus.)

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

You need a rule like Feral Combat Training to allow you to make more than two bite attacks.

Quote:

Feral Combat Training

Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.

Without this rule, a character with a bite attack and flurry of blows could not take more than 1 bite in a round even if they have sufficient BAB to gain multiple.

I don't see a similar rule in the Animal Fury ability, but you apparently do.


James Risner wrote:

You need a rule like Feral Combat Training to allow you to make more than two bite attacks.

Quote:

Feral Combat Training

Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.

Without this rule, a character with a bite attack and flurry of blows could not take more than 1 bite in a round even if they have sufficient BAB to gain multiple.

I don't see a similar rule in the Animal Fury ability, but you apparently do.

There is no rule limiting natural attacks to once per round. They just do not have iterative attacks. Those are very different things.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Calth wrote:
There is no rule limiting natural attacks to once per round. They just do not have iterative attacks. Those are very different things.

I see.

So the 25 gp dog has a bite.

That means I can attack 9 times with that bite.
If there are 9 creatures surrbounding him he can attack with the bite all 9 in a round.

But where it really shines is when the dog is next to a fire giant, I just make 10 million attacks, so with crits that dog can kill anything in one turn.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Sure.

In the first case, all you need is to somehow get that dog Whirlwind Attack, and it can attack everything surrounding it in one round.

In the second, all you need is a feat or ability that says "When you are next to a fire giant, you can bite 10 million times."

When an ability tells you that you can do something, you can do it. In the case of Animal Fury, it tells you that when you make a grapple check to maintain a grapple, you can make a bite attack.

Specific beats general.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

ZZTRaider wrote:
In the second, all you need is a feat or ability that says "When you are next to a fire giant, you can bite 10 million times."

In your case, you need something that says you get to make a "free" bite attack.

Examples:

Quote:
Challenge: An order of the hammer cavalier can attempt a free grapple check or free sunder combat maneuver check anytime she takes the full-attack action against the target of her challenge. This free combat maneuver does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Quote:
Challenge: An order of the seal cavalier can make a free bull rush or trip combat maneuver anytime he takes the full-attack action against the target of his challenge. This free combat maneuver does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Quote:
A barbarian’s mount can affect creatures up to its own size with its ferocious trample. In addition, it can make an overrun combat maneuver check as a free action against a creature that fails its Reflex save (or chooses not to save in order to take an attack of opportunity) against its trample.

All these examples indicate the attack (maneuver) is free and doesn't need to be paid in the form of normal action economy.

This bite isn't listed as free, and there is a way to interpret it as using up normal action economy.

Basically, this is an "Ask your GM" question and depends on your GM's rules interpretations. We don't share the same interpretation, and there isn't much to point to prove which side is correct. Well short of an FAQ or developer comment.


The real q is what action is the rapid geapple? If its maintain than it should trigger more attacka, if not than no.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

666bender wrote:
The real q is what action is the rapid geapple? If its maintain than it should trigger more attacka, if not than no.

swift action and at -5

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

It is interesting that the rage power was updated in unchained. It may be more clear now?

Quote:
Animal Fury (Ex): The barbarian gains a bite attack. This is a primary natural attack that deals 1d4 points of damage (if the barbarian is Medium; 1d3 if the barbarian is Small) plus the barbarian's Strength modifier. If made as part of a full-attack action with manufactured weapons, the bite attack is made at the barbarian's full base attack bonus – 5, and she adds only 1/2 her Strength modifier to the damage roll. The barbarian can make a bite attack as part of the action to maintain or break free from a grapple. If the bite attack hits, grapple checks attempted by the barbarian against the target until the end of the round gain a +2 bonus.

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