Ok, sorry for the title (pretentious, I know), but after playing Pathfinder for several years now and after browsing quite extensively through these forums I think I have a general idea about what's "wrong" with the RAW of the game (again, I know this is in great part subjective, but I think enough people have similar issues with a part Pathfinder's to allow for some sort of generalization).
Basically most problems seem to arise from the way some spells work, especially if casted in conjunction with each other (scry+teleport, or limited wish+geas just to name a couple).
These have the potential to be game breaking (so... no need for hacking through all those critters... just allow your wizard to scry the location of the BBEG then teleport the party in his bedchamber and slay him pronto! Or even better... teleport inside his bedchamber and make him your slave with a limited wish you quickened thanks to your lesser quicken metamagic rod he forged himself for a measly 17500gp).
And then of course a lot of people seem to think PF is too biased in favor of spellcasters and that the ruleset allows them to easily usurp other classes roles, martials and rogues expecially (is your fighter any better at fighting than your druid and his pet? What about that summoner and his eidolon? Or the self buffing cleric and the polymorphing wizard? Well even if he were a tad better they also are 9th level spellcasters or something very similar).
Aside from the above and the last issue with PF seem to be the abundance of lesser spells that do too much for their level(Blood Money?).
Now, here's my proposal: if the issues with Pathfinder mainly come from certain spells and certain strategies, let's list them all and let's find ways to solve the problems. For example "Scry & Fry" is a game breaking problem only if the GM allows it to become one by not using wards against scry. Teleport is a spell that could use some changes (it destroys the need for movement and gives the party an easy way out when their 15 minutes adventuring day ends) and so on.
Once the community has listed the biggest offenders and decided on way to lessen the impact and (hopefully) solve the issues we could look at the spellcasting classes and see if there's more to do.
The collected results of possible issues arising in PF play, especially but not only at high levels could become a resource for less experienced GMs and also serve as a useful tool for those experienced GM in need of a reminder. It would obviously be free, completely optional resource for anyone who chose to use it.
Wow, 2000 called, wants the "magic in 3e is powerful, how do I accommodate?" topic back.
Very insightful. Is there anything wrong in building an OPTIONAL FREE RESOURCE for those GM and players who may want to lessen the power of certain spells/comboes in order to get a game that feels more ballanced?
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This list would be impossibly big for less experienced GMs. General advice would be advised, depending on the kind of GM/players/interaction. That already exists in many forms. More experienced GMs don't need an exhaustive list of powerful combos, and here's why.
In the spirit of your request... the best thing is to take the time to understand the system, dungeon, monsters, player's characters, and if you don't understand, either don't allow it or learn it on your own time. I wouldn't recommend winging it without that understanding unless you're willing to let the player(s) have near-total control of the game. I like to let the players have what they want and come up, but then they often don't like how challenges end up challenging them because their cheese doesn't work as well as they want, or worse, can't handle it when the cheese is used back at them. It's a balancing act; you shouldn't always say yes or no to cheese. Try to stick with what you know, start with the core book and slowly expand. Don't get overwhelmed by the players, they should understand that you're unaccustomed to the position and concede to your imposed limits. Don't be shy to make clear limits, it's better for everyone that way. Your players might even remind you of those limits!
The kind of cheese I usually say no to are the kind that work in most situations. The first question I ask myself is: would this cheese save them from strong enemies successfully ambushing the PCs? General purpose crowd control that ignores immunity is an automatic no, regardless of other limitations. Things that change action economy deserve a good, hard look. Crafting custom items in general is nightmarish for balance. Always make Divination sketchy, and go to extra lengths if you have a bad poker face. Use a combination of counter-divination and in-game deception. Target summons and companion class features, especially the casters. Have dedicated counterspell casters on constant alert and hidden. Consumable items and other ongoing spell counters work well too.
Ultimately, a list of OP strategies and combos is pointless, because there are many possibilities, and most of them can be dealt with easily enough and are subject to interpretation in terms of viability and if its legal or not. Rather than knowing all that is out there, just know what your players might use. Ask them if you have to. Having a list beforehand is backwards.
If you're hardcore about the list none the less, then I'll start...
- Haste is OP in a party with multiple martial types in the early-mid levels.
Multiple Enervation casters will wreck your BBEG without Restoration. 4 hits usually give -10 attack and spellcaster level and can quickly outright kill targets with nothing more than touch AC and SR to save them. With Quicken, that 4-caster team will kill almost any target not immune to Enervation in the first round combo with Energy Drain.
Intelligent creatures can be defeated by the smallest of illusions, stronger ones only make it easier. Making a combo of illusions multiplies their effectiveness.
The plethora of crowd control spells means that with a few of them prepared, you can take just about anyone out of combat for a few rounds fairly reliably, and its even easier to take groups out. The combo is in having different ones available.
Trap the Soul. Just a prime example of the GM needing to understand what their players have.
The ability to change the environment can do all or most of the work. Anything from Grease to Polymorph Any Object can spell doom, the caster just needs a scroll of the less common spells and prepare the better ones and even some innocuous environments can become deadly.
You can't itemize Pathfinder's problems into a list. They're way too complex and numerous. The biggest ones stem from faulty design logic and flawed math, which can't really be fixed unless you rebuild the game from the ground up.
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Are we talking rules or world?
What's irritating me at the moment is the monolithic mono-cultural pantheon. They need to build in regional differences, they need to demonstrate how the average person worships, do the venerate one God or do they venerate the beneficial ones and placate the dangerous ones... Do pregnant women make little sacrifices to Lamashtu in the hope she doesn't "bless" them with a still birth or birth defects, do farmers placate Pazuzu so birds don't eat their crops.....
What if spellcaster has to use a portion of his spellcasting resources to prevent other spellcasters from teleporting in and killing his party one at a time? Sounds pretty sweet.
There are ways to push a car beyond it's intended performance, and an RPG is the same. The car relents and will eventually break down, so will the RPG. Maybe daddy takes the car away, maybe you get a ticket, maybe the tow man has to bail you out. Luckily in an RPG, the GM has his own break pedal.
Drive responsibly kids.
So far the best solution I've found is that if you move away from a square (either via teleportation or the move action) and you are hit as an AoO, you don't move and lose the action (and potentially spell). No more casters running away from the brute to come back with 100 million buffs; (teleport would basically be opening a portal you could 5ft step into as a free action not counting against your other five foot step) if they cast teleport, they cant five foot step without provoking away from someone threatening them (can move around but not out of threaten area) (HR) and there are feats to prevent withdraw actions from working (just ignore the mobility feat tax) so anyone who spends a feat can keep a caster within arms reach.
Don't know what E6 is.
Pathfinder is all written for Glorion. In Glorion, all undead are death machines. Zombies can't carry things or build houses. They can only attack things or follow along waiting for a chance to attack things. Part of the temptation of necromancy is the slave labor, so I would allow create undead to imprint a single simple command into the thing that they will follow till control lapses or another command is given.
You could arrange your list by what class they think needs help and how GMs could give them an advantage. Every class should be included.
A first level spellcaster can be killed by a single arrow before they have a chance to cast any defensive spells. I designed a spell storing amulet that activates the defensive spell when they are attacked. To limit the cost, it only stores 3 levels of defensive spells, cast by the user, and it uses the neck slot.
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Don't know what E6 is.
Pathfinder is great in the 3-6 level range. That's really the sweet spot where the math is easy, battles are still challenging, and characters are just powerful enough to do their job well and contribute to the team. Any lower and they're one-hit wonders; get much higher and the d20 system in general starts to break down under its own weight, which is further compounded by the runaway power curve of full casters.
E6 is one simple rule that fixes all of that: Characters stop progressing at level 6. Every 5,000 exp (or 3 sessions) they earn a new feat. That's it. You get some more utilities and options, but the math stops.
No more scry and fry wizard nonsense. No more 15 minute combat rounds while the martials add up the damage from their half dozen attacks. No more battle resurrections making death meaningless. Juggernaut eidolons, mass summons, insane sneak attacks, wish litigation, Leadership, crazy DR/SR... it all gets chopped right off.
I'm in a 2-year-long E6 campaign right now with rotating DMs and it's probably the best RPG experience I've had since high school.
I don't like E6, but that can be in the data base.
Also, a few versions of the "get rid of the big 6" rules should be included. When someone finds that cloak of the manta ray, they shouldn't have to choose between that and a +5 rag of charisma.
The cloak of the manta ray should work for both salt and fresh water. A bottle of air should provide air in a bag of holding or portable hole as long as it's unstoppered. Maybe there should be a better one called a breathing bottle because it puts out good air, then sucks in the bad air. The ring of invisibility is lame because every time you attack you have to reactivate it. How much more would it cost to make the ring reactivate at the end your turn?
never seen Scry and fry as an issue. In a setting where scrying magic exists, anyone who is worried about it uses lead in their walls. A thin shewet between the bricks and Scrying fails. Unless Magic is extreemly rare in your setting the mundane ways of countering things would be known, especially to those who have reason to worry about it.
Some alternatives:
1 - Use E6. It's fast, it's fun, and it's heroic enough to accomodate a high fantasy game.
2 - Use Dreamscarred Psionics and Path of War. Ban all other classes.A good friend of mine do it and works wonders, but it can be too radical to some.
3 - Ban all spellcasting classes. Use Spheres of Power. It's way more easier, balanced and thematic that vancian magic, but some people love vancian 'cause nostalgia.
4 - Ban one of the following: Full caster classes or 7th and higher spells entirely. Can work if your friends don't are fangirls of Tier 1-2 casters.
5 - Play another system. Try Fantasy Craft or another d20 variante that is better balanced.
Good luck and have fun!
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Nope, but you're duplicating megabytes of content on WotC/GiTP/TGD/BG/Paizo/Enworld forums that have dealt with the exact topic. I mean, it's one of the most iconic discussions on the 3e ruleset and its derivatives.
Believe it or not, some people may not live on the boards or even, *gasp*, could have started playing recently. Heck, people could even have new things to say on the subject. Or they don't, and you could just skip this post.
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Don't know what E6 is.
...13 hours later...
I don't like E6
Man, I love the Paizo message boards! This guy went from "don't know what E6 is" to "I don't like E6" over the course of 13 hours. If that's not due diligence, I don't know what is! :)
I hear this a lot when I read threads like this: "Spellcasters are too powerful at high level! Battles take too long at high level! High level monsters are too deadly and/or they're too hard to run because of so many complicated powers! My high level rogue is being outshined by the party's high level wizard! It takes too long to add up all the bonuses, damage, and modifiers for every action we take at high level! My high level players just keep scrying and frying all my villains! The high level summoner's turns take forever!"
Anyone else seeing a pattern? When I see these threads, I chime in and suggest E6. And the response usually is:
"E6 sucks! I love high level spells and iterative attacks! I love seeing huge damage numbers! I can't be bothered to modify my game for E6!"
Get it together, people.
I'm really starting to lean a bit toward E11 myself. The trick is convincing my players it's a good idea.
I'm really starting to lean a bit toward E11 myself. The trick is convincing my players it's a good idea.
E11 punishes spontaneous spellcasters, just go ahead and make a E12.
A friend of mine is converting PF to E12, with the Capstones at 12th level. She is making a really good work.
I'm really starting to lean a bit toward E11 myself. The trick is convincing my players it's a good idea.E11 punishes spontaneous spellcasters, just go ahead and make a E12.
Not in my games, I shifted spont casters to progress at the same rate as prepared a long, long time ago.
Not necessarily opposed to E12 over E11 really, just tend to forget that not everyone has made that little change.
Oh, that makes a lot of sense.
Well 3.5s Epic level is like E6 in it suddenly throws out the leveled structure for a different skill dependent pattern. If you look at my ritual experiment, where success is completely based on skills, mostly but not exclusively knowledges, you see that it is added to the Vancian system.
Go to Rituals.
You might as well play E1, which is GURPS. Right from the start, everything is based off of skills. There are no levels. I find it limiting. Being an American where competition is built into the government and economy, I would rather the characters make choices or use a mix of the two systems. Skill based has higher benefits and costs of failure.
Rituals also cost mental inventory, which not everyone has embraced. How do you deal with a sorcerer who claims their character has memorized everyplace in Glorion when they gain teleport? With mental inventory, it's limited by intelligence and level.
We use two gentlemen's rules to curb problems in our game, starting 15 years ago in 3.0, and just extend it to each new group I play with.
1) 1 pet and 1 summon spell per person at a time. A friggin swarm of summons is annoying to both GMs and other players.
2) Don't use dirty tricks that you don't want used on you. Its kind of a catch all to prevent players from doing srcy and fry stuff more than once per campaign. Its worked well for many years. Most players dont want to provoke the GM into facing endless clones that teleport into your home/campsite and blow you up.
We need to start to talk about a Pathfinder 2.0, since 5e is good but not the definitive answer to our needs. We need an evolution of Pathfinder not a rough simplification as 5e (besides it has its own merits).
My taked on PFRGP2.0 would be:
- More flexible and modular classes in line with what is presented in the Genius Guides of Talented Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Barbarian books from Rogue Genius Games.
- A Base Defense Bonus (BDB) equal to 1/2 character's BAB to avoid the need of magical items to scale AC (magic itens bonus should be relanced too, since if you have BDB you may only need magic AC bonus that offset Magic Attack bonus, making magic bonuses neutral)
- No need of Full Round action to use multiple/itterative attacks;
- No random hp roll, characters and monsters gain full hit dice hp at each level.
- Base Saves always equal to 1/2 Character level + ability modifier, plus a Flat bonus of +2 for good saves according to class;
- Spells base Save DC always equal 1/2 caster level + ability modifier
- Advance with skill consolidation and simplification of skill bonus (ditch ranks systems):
• Trained class skill: 1d20 + character level + key ability modifier.
• Untrained class skill: 1d20 + ½ character level + key ability modifier.
• Trained non-class skill: 1d20 + ½ character level + key ability modifier.
• Untrained non-class skill: 1d20 + key ability modifier.
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Valian:
Star Wars Saga Edition (and to a lesser extent, Fourth Edition) did this for your saves:
- Fortitude: 10 + your level + your Con mod (or Str mod if you are a droid) + armor bonus + class bonus (+1 for Jedi and scouts, +2 for soldiers)
- Reflex: 10 + your level or your armor bonus + your Dex modifier (limited by armor) + class bonus (+1 for Jedi, nobles, and soldiers, +2 for scoundrels and scouts)
- Will: 10 + your level + your Wis modifier + class bonus (+1 for Jedi and scoundrels, +2 for nobles)
These were, however, rolled against by the attacker instead of rolled by the player. As much as I like treating Fort/Ref/Will as similar to AC (Heck, your Reflex Defense in Saga WAS your Armor Class) I can kinda understand why letting the player roll his save is a good idea.
We use two gentlemen's rules to curb problems in our game, starting 15 years ago in 3.0, and just extend it to each new group I play with.
1) 1 pet and 1 summon spell per person at a time. A friggin swarm of summons is annoying to both GMs and other players.
2) Don't use dirty tricks that you don't want used on you. Its kind of a catch all to prevent players from doing srcy and fry stuff more than once per campaign. Its worked well for many years. Most players dont want to provoke the GM into facing endless clones that teleport into your home/campsite and blow you up.
1) Does a charmed monster count as a pet or a summoned? Don't leave animated dead with a loophole. How about each character is allowed 2 of anything, aside from mirror images.
2) You have to be stingier with memorized locations. Also, the character's patrons will sometimes meet with them while their furniture is being rearranged. Moving the furniture every day raises the chance of teleport mishap by maybe 25%. The GM sets the percentage, but the PCs should catch on and start rearranging the furniture in their base of operations. Also, a room can be specially cursed so scrying shows everything backwards, east to west or north to south.
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I'm really starting to lean a bit toward E11 myself. The trick is convincing my players it's a good idea.E11 punishes spontaneous spellcasters, just go ahead and make a E12.
A friend of mine is converting PF to E12, with the Capstones at 12th level. She is making a really good work.
I do find the level 4 to level 12 range to be where Pathfinder is best.
Granted, I've never allowed teleportation magic, so that option isn't available.