Unchained seems to be pushing rogues towards a battlefield control and debuff kind of role. I thought I'd see how far it's possible to go with that. I also kind of always wanted to play a half-orc wearing a fedora.
Unchained Rogue (Scout, Thug)
Traits: Bred for war, fate's favored
STR: 10
DEX: 18 (16 + 2)
CON: 12
INT: 13
WIS: 10
CHA: 14
Feats/talents:
1: Enforcer
2: Weapon training: whip
3: Whip mastery (dex to damage: whip)
4: Combat trick: Combat Expertise
5: Improved trip (Skill unlock: intimidate)
6: Minor magic: acid splash; Major magic: vanish (Human FCB)
7: Improved whip mastery
8: Ninja trick: pressure points
9: Greater trip
10: Advanced talent: weapon snatcher
The basic idea is that you get your choice of debuffs. You're set up to pump intimidate pretty high, so you should be sending people fleeing from combat almost at will. When you run into creatures that are immune to non-lethal or immune to mind-affecting you can trip them from a distance. When applicable, weapon snatcher lets you disarm with a sleight of hand check which should be succeeding most of the time.
Vanish and Scout should let you get a decent number of sneak attacks with the associated sickening/debilitating injuries/STR damage. You also should have a high enough UMD to pull off Obscuring Mist + fogcutter lens shenanigans if your party is on board.
I didn't have combat reflexes in there early because I personally rarely experience multiple provocations in a turn. If you redid the build without a whip focus it would open up room for that as well as the dazzling display -> shattered defenses chain. But then you don't get to use a whip, so...
My big concern is the usual rogue problem of not landing my attacks. Arguably going for a trip build just spreads out the mediocrity instead of making the character good at anything. Assuming a +2 whip and +4 dex item (and +2 dex from leveling) at ninth level a trip attempt will have a CMB = 6 BAB + 7 dex + 2 whip + 2 improved trip + 2 greater trip + 1 weapon focus + 1 trait = 21.
Would that cut it? Would an attack from invisibility cause them to lose their dex to CMD?
Any other suggestions? I like the idea of whip-cracking battlefield control but I also like the idea of running a reasonably effective character.
I would honestly say that while focusing on trip can be good at low levels, monster quickly become too large with too high of CMDs or immune to being tripped by flying or other methods.
I would recommend dirty trick instead, which can do a variety of debuffing.
Also, scout and vanish really aren't useful enough to rely on into higher levels. Both can guarantee a sneak attack, but only 1 per round due to the nature of how the work. It's nice to get sneak attack, but you need more than one attack a round keep damage up. If you had you heart set on it, you would want spring attack with the Scout so you could move, sneak attack, move away.
The attraction to trip is that you get auto-dex to damage and range since you use the whip for it. Using a weapon for dirty trick requires GM approval (e.g. sap to the vulnerables) and I'm not sure it's possible at all in PFS. You'd think rogues would be good at dirty tricks but the mechanics aren't really there.
If they ever revive sneaky maneuvers the whole idea gets a lot more appealing.
I wonder if the way to go isn't just to get a wand of blade lash and keep it around in case of constructs. You'd have a net +5 to CMB even with no feat or trait investment.
Ummm, unless there is something I am forgetting, using your whip to trip is making a trip combat maneuver. Which doesn't allow you to also deal damage at the same time. You either attack for damage, or make a trip maneuver.
Sorry, free dex to hit. If you're using a weapon you can apply relevant weapon bonuses to your CMB. Trip uses weapons per the written rules. Dirty Trick is up to GM discretion.
Sorry, free dex to hit. If you're using a weapon you can apply relevant weapon bonuses to your CMB. Trip uses weapons per the written rules. Dirty Trick is up to GM discretion.
True, but if the enemy if immune to being tripped it doesn't matter how many bonuses to hit you have.
Charon makes a good point though, even using weapon finesse there is a good chance you wont succeed on combat maneuver checks against many creatures/opponents because of your lower BAB.
I just don't personally think focusing on trip is going to work very well.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mmafMuRRd3ubCMhCNmOomLUn_YvaVXiHwSyuC1Y DrNc/edit
Check that guide.
It has an analysis on what resistances you should be aiming according to level, considering you face monsters from Bestiaries.
Basically:
CMD is easily the worst thing to target when you’re going against monsters. After level 5 your chances with most of your spells without trying to boost them with feats are about 25% for success. This number drops to 15% as soon as you pass level 10.
Some spells like Black Tentacles don’t even let you add Intelligence to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (CMB), which makes them irrelevant even faster if you’re facing monsters at the appropriate CR.
Of course this is considering a Wizard, but you get the general idea. If playing a full Humanoid campaign I can tell you it's really good, but monster? that's a big no no.
Sadly, the game doesn't make this clear, nor it tells you any info regarding monsters, which ruins a lot of things when you have these builds in mind.
Hoe does that work, I can only find the demoralize option that causes the shaken condition?
The basic idea is that you get your choice of debuffs. You're set up to pump intimidate pretty high, so you should be sending people fleeing from combat almost at will.
Intimidate skill unlock, probably. Though that has a will save as well as the skill check required.
Thug + enforcer = one round of frightened on every hit if you want it.
Again, the idea would be to switch to trip when it's likely to work (i.e. two legged constructs/undead). I think the earlier suggestion to keep a wand of blade lash up your sleeve for those situations is correct, though.
Thug + enforcer = one round of frightened on every hit if you want it.
Again, the idea would be to switch to trip when it's likely to work (i.e. two legged constructs/undead). I think the earlier suggestion to keep a wand of blade lash up your sleeve for those situations is correct, though.
Wouldn't that need your intimidate + roll to beat their HD + Wis + 10 by 15 or more? It'll happen, but not every attack.
Wouldn't that need your intimidate + roll to beat their HD + Wis + 10 by 15 or more? It'll happen, but not every attack.
Short answer: no. Long answer: nooooooooo.
So you need to do three damage. With a +4 bonus to damage that's going to be just about every time you hit. You also need to hit your intimidate check, but that's pretty trivial with this build.