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This seems to be a point of contention for a lot of people. Flat-footed condition states you are "unable to react normally to the situation." Some people argue that since you cannot take immediate actions while flat-footed, you also cannot speak. I argue that since speaking doesn't say you can't do it while flat-footed AND that since it is POSSIBLE to ATTACK while flat-footed through use of Combat Reflexes, it is POSSIBLE to SPEAK while flat-footed.
I'd love to see this FAQ'd so I can stop dealing with it all the time. D:
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Yes, you can speak. Speaking is a "free action" and can take place at any time.
The biggest issue I've seen with it is not allowing knowledge check to identify creatures and warning your party until your turn.
It's already exceedingly clear that the knowledge check can be done instantaneously upon perceiving the creature. It's just that apparently speaking about what I know has to wait until my turn since I'm flat footed.
"Knowledge checks on your turn" is how the majority of my PFS lodge's GMs run it and I am trying to show that this is not RAW.
In my reading of the rules, at worst it is subject to GM interpretation due to flat-footed stating "unable to react normally to the situation." At best, you can speak while flat-footed because there aren't rules saying you can't.
Well, thematically, turning around to see a troll bearing down on you, you probably do have a time to shot "Troll!" (it doesn't change the fact that it's gonna hit you before you can react to it). Shouting the type of creature isn't going to make a difference to the happenings on that round. Waiting til it's your turn (or until the surprise round is over) also isn't going to make a difference.
The big difference is in yelling some kind of informative warning. This would allow you to influence your parties' actions before your turn. When fighting a Remorhaz, it sure would be nice to warn the meleers to not engage it in melee BEFORE they go in and demolish themselves or their weapons.
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Sure, as long as your warning is only a few seconds long. :)
Of course! Anything else would be outside of the bounds of speaking as a free action.
In any case, I'd love to see this FAQ'd so I don't have to argue this with PFS GMs.
Legally, you can do a free action on the round that your party begins reacting. First person to go outside the surprise round can go after you get a free action. That's in the books. Maybe they could argue that you can't warn anyone that can go on the surprise round (I disagree), but they can't argue about you warning them before your turn, but not on the surprise round.
Legally, you can do a free action on the round that your party begins reacting.
Do you have a rules quote I can use for this?
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.
You can shout: "OW, MY FOOT!"
Anything other than that would be meta-gaming, IMO.
This seems to be a point of contention for a lot of people. Flat-footed condition states you are "unable to react normally to the situation." Some people argue that since you cannot take immediate actions while flat-footed, you also cannot speak. I argue that since speaking doesn't say you can't do it while flat-footed AND that since it is POSSIBLE to ATTACK while flat-footed through use of Combat Reflexes, it is POSSIBLE to SPEAK while flat-footed.
I'd love to see this FAQ'd so I can stop dealing with it all the time. D:
Those "some people" are reading too much into the description of flat-footed.
Flat-Footed: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.
"Unable to react normally" is not the same as unable to react. The not-normal reaction is losing Dex bonus to AC and attacks of opportunity.
Flat-footed is also mentioned under combat.
Initiative
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can't make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.Surprise
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.Immediate Actions
... You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.Helpless Defenders
A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.
Regular Attack: A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks. In addition, a helpless character is treated as having a Dexterity of 0, giving him a –5 penalty to AC against both melee and ranged attacks (for a total of –9 against melee and –5 against ranged). A helpless character is also flat-footed.
In Pathfinder, flat-footed does not mean unaware or helpless, though being unaware or helpless also make a character flat-footed. It means the character lacks an opportunity to dodge and attack. Neither of those prevent speaking.
Imagine it as if you rushed a character sitting in a chair: he has to get off of the chair before he could dodge or attack.
From the rules on the surprise round: "Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round"
So, surprised, no free actions. First round of combat, sure.
From the rules on the surprise round: "Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round"
So, surprised, no free actions. First round of combat, sure.
Ah. This definitely seems reasonable. The surprise round was definitely questionable and I think that settles it fairly within RAW.
Surely, though, once something attacks you in the surprise round, you are now aware of it. Can you cry out in pain or do you have to wait for your turn in the first round?
And could you say, "ow, I was hit by a ghoul!" Instead of just "ow, I was hit!" ?
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The biggest issue I've seen with it is not allowing knowledge check to identify creatures and warning your party until your turn.
It's already exceedingly clear that the knowledge check can be done instantaneously upon perceiving the creature. It's just that apparently speaking about what I know has to wait until my turn since I'm flat footed.
"Knowledge checks on your turn" is how the majority of my PFS lodge's GMs run it and I am trying to show that this is not RAW.
In my reading of the rules, at worst it is subject to GM interpretation due to flat-footed stating "unable to react normally to the situation." At best, you can speak while flat-footed because there aren't rules saying you can't.
You are flat footed, so you probably have failed your perception check or for some other reason you aren't unaware of the situation. So no, you can't make a knowledge check as you haven't noticed anything, you can't transmit information as you haven't noticed anything.
Until you act you are at the "Duh, what is happening?" stage.
Some people has special training (Uncanny Dodge) and can react by instinct, but they haven't a clear idea of what is happening until they get to act.
So, no shouting a warning while flatfooted, no knowledge check while flat footed.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
Unaware people is, you know, unaware.
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Surely, though, once something attacks you in the surprise round, you are now aware of it. Can you cry out in pain or do you have to wait for your turn in the first round?
And could you say, "ow, I was hit by a ghoul!" Instead of just "ow, I was hit!" ?
Yes, you can cry in pain, no you can't identify what has hit you. You are seeing stars and clutching you head/hand/whatever in pain.
Why you guys try to metagame this way?
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Yes, you can cry in pain, no you can't identify what has hit you. You are seeing stars and clutching you head/hand/whatever in pain.Surely, though, once something attacks you in the surprise round, you are now aware of it. Can you cry out in pain or do you have to wait for your turn in the first round?
And could you say, "ow, I was hit by a ghoul!" Instead of just "ow, I was hit!" ?
All of that is fluff, and your interpretation of fluff. Where is any of that in the rules?
Once I've been attacked, I'm aware of my opponent, even if the attacked missed. If my opponent was in stealth or invisible, he's not anymore (normally). So what prevents me from making a knowledge check? It is not an action.
Speaking is a free action that I can do when it's not my turn. So what prevents me, after I've been attacked, from saying something?
Part of my issue is that "flat footed" is a relational condition. I can be flat footed to one creature (say, because of invisibilty) but not flat footed to another feature at the same time. So can I speak?
Why you guys try to metagame this way?
Because that's what the rules forum us for?
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"What the--"
Initiative
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. ...
Speaking is a free action that you can do even when it is not your turn. Acting means "taking an action". You can't "take an action" before you "have a chance to act".
Therefore, no speaking or other actions, until it is your turn.
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Yes, you can cry in pain, no you can't identify what has hit you. You are seeing stars and clutching you head/hand/whatever in pain.Surely, though, once something attacks you in the surprise round, you are now aware of it. Can you cry out in pain or do you have to wait for your turn in the first round?
And could you say, "ow, I was hit by a ghoul!" Instead of just "ow, I was hit!" ?
All of that is fluff, and your interpretation of fluff. Where is any of that in the rules?
Once I've been attacked, I'm aware of my opponent, even if the attacked missed. If my opponent was in stealth or invisible, he's not anymore (normally). So what prevents me from making a knowledge check? It is not an action.
Speaking is a free action that I can do when it's not my turn. So what prevents me, after I've been attacked, from saying something?Part of my issue is that "flat footed" is a relational condition. I can be flat footed to one creature (say, because of invisibilty) but not flat footed to another feature at the same time. So can I speak?
Because that's what the rules forum us for?Why you guys try to metagame this way?
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round.
Attacked or not, you don't get to act.
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.
And before your first initiative you can't act.
I'm left speechless
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There's a lot of misinformation on this thread.
The big one is confusing "surprised" with "flat-footed."
There is always at least one person who is flat-footed at the start of every combat, whether surprise is involved or not. Even if there's a gunfight at the OK Corral, someone rolled higher on her initiative, goes first, and therefore has everyone else flat-footed.....
.... but this doesn't mean that anyone is surprised.
Someone unaware of what's going on can't do anything about the material they don't know, that I grant. So if you're surprised you're not going to do anything before the baddies get their shot in. But once you've been attacked, you're aware of what's going on, and "speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn." So yelling "archers!" is perfectly legitimate.
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Surely, though, once something attacks you in the surprise round, you are now aware of it. Can you cry out in pain or do you have to wait for your turn in the first round?
And could you say, "ow, I was hit by a ghoul!" Instead of just "ow, I was hit!" ?
Not necessarily! Just because you have been cut in half does not know you are aware of what exactly cut you in half. No reason to think you are aware of the agent just because you have been affected by that agent.
I agree you can cry out in pain once you have been sliced.
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Simply put, I think you are not 'aware' until you have a turn. If you are surprised, you are not aware of what's coming at you. If they come at you before you come at them, then you are not aware until your turn.
Now if you have been engaged in conversation, negotiation, etc., then you should have already called for those checks.
I.e. if you ask for the knowledge check before the GM calls for perception/initiative, it most likely should be given. Otherwise, wait till your turn!
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Simply put, I think you are not 'aware' until you have a turn.
This is simply wrong. Again, think of a gunfight at the OK Corral. Both parties are well aware of each other; it just so happens that one person is a faster draw (rolled better on initiative).
If you are surprised, you are not aware of what's coming at you.
But most of the time when you're flat-footed, you're not surprised.
If they come at you before you come at them, then you are not aware until your turn.
Patent nonsense. I'm certainly aware I'm in a gunfight.
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Someone unaware of what's going on can't do anything about the material they don't know, that I grant. So if you're surprised you're not going to do anything before the baddies get their shot in. But once you've been attacked, you're aware of what's going on, and "speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn." So yelling "archers!" is perfectly legitimate.
Bold added
But you're not allowed to act, thus no free actions. The "...even when it isn't your turn" part of speaking just means that you can speak outside your turn, not that you can speak when you are paralyzed, stunned or otherwise unable to act.
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Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round.Attacked or not, you don't get to act.
And before your first initiative you can't act.
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.
Looking at the rules, I have to say you're right. Since speaking is classified as an action, the rules forbid speaking while you are surprised.
Bloody f$~&ing stupid that, but since it's over before anyone really knows anything, it rarely comes up in my experience.
I would allow the PCs to speak unless it was crucial. This is in their favor, as it prevents a guard from screaming out "INTRUDERS" before she gets killed. It also prevents them from getting out a warning before the assassin goes for the princess. It does not, however, prevent snark, or a "just-too-late warning".
Basically, handwave it until it matters. If it's what the encounter's about...well, they're just barely too slow.
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Basically, handwave it until it matters. If it's what the encounter's about...well, they're just barely too slow.
Oh yeah. I always give the PCs a chance to silent the guards before they can scream. Of course, when the party rogue biffs the attack roll, or fails to finish the guard with his sneak attack, then the alarm goes out and everything goes to hell.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round.Attacked or not, you don't get to act.
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.And before your first initiative you can't act.
Unfortunately these two bits together really just muddle things more. There's nothing defining that "act" means "taking actions". The closest thing there is seems to indicate that "acting" means taking your first turn. Speaking (a free action that can be taken when it is not your turn) and non-actions do not have any specific stipulations that they cannot be used while flat-footed. This is in contrast to immediate actions which do specify that they cannot be used while flat-footed.
All this vague rules text leaves us with GM interpretation, which is easily evidenced by this thread. Since having it one way can make a significant difference to the party's survival, I believe it should be clarified in the FAQ. Please click the FAQ button if you agree!
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My feeling on this is that while you are aware of what is happening and know what you know, the flat footed part of the round is one in which you can't act. For simplicity I have knowledge rolls made on the players turn since I interpret that he can't share that information until his initiative anyway. The idea is you are standing there dumbfounded thinking "what the hell was that", followed by "a fiendish squirrel?" By the time you go on your initiative you are able to formulate and spit out something articulate enough to share your knowledge with others.
Had a business meeting with someone on a patio the other day when a squirrel jumped up on his crotch and clung for dear life. I would say it was a full several seconds where he was only able to flail his arms and make ineffectual "uh, uh, UH!" noises. Did the squirrel have a surprise round? Probably, but I saw what flat footed looked like, and it was not elegant. :-)
I would be interested in seeing a clarification on this but I find it hard to believe that a character who is caught unawares is going to be able to recite all the details of his grade 9 beasts of legend class to the group.
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You can speak as a free action, even when it's not your turn.
But that's an exception. Most other free actions are only done on your turn. The other exceptions that have come to light are things like Grab or Trip rider effects on attacks of opportunity.
So you can't do the Knowledge Check when it's your turn, because there's no exception to allow you to.
The question would be if speaking is part of "reacting normally". That's up for interpretation.
(Aside: some combats start without anyone flat-footed, due to Uncanny Dodge. Even then, knowledge only in your turn.)
Why you guys try to metagame this way?
When did you stop beating your wife? Sorry, but that question is loaded.
Here's another angle on this: who cares? Say the entire party is surprised. An (greater) invisible assassin shows up and sticks its dagger into Fighter A's gut. "Uh, something invisible just poked me." Guess what the rest of the party gets to do. Nothing. Because it's still the surprise round. That speaking doesn't DO anything. Even a free Knowledge check doesn't DO anything. It turns out there are 20 invisible assassins, and everyone gets shanked.
Once initiative is rolled and a surprise round is declared, nothing changes your awareness until the surprise round is resolved, even if you could yourself outright see the opponent.
So again, beyond the metagaming accusation, what does it matter?
Why you guys try to metagame this way?When did you stop beating your wife? Sorry, but that question is loaded.
Here's another angle on this: who cares? Say the entire party is surprised. An (greater) invisible assassin shows up and sticks its dagger into Fighter A's gut. "Uh, something invisible just poked me." Guess what the rest of the party gets to do. Nothing. Because it's still the surprise round. That speaking doesn't DO anything. Even a free Knowledge check doesn't DO anything. It turns out there are 20 invisible assassins, and everyone gets shanked.
Once initiative is rolled and a surprise round is declared, nothing changes your awareness until the surprise round is resolved, even if you could yourself outright see the opponent.
So again, beyond the metagaming accusation, what does it matter?
Alerting the guards, waking your companions when you're on watch, that sort of thing.
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It could certainly make a difference. I don't think it's necessarily metagaming.
Consider for example that Joe missed last session. Mikey met an owlbear last session and now he knows what owlbears look like.
Today Joe and Mikey run into the same owlbear. Mikey doesn't need to roll Knowledge to know what it is, and he can shout out to Joe that it's got a Grab attack because he had that last week.
So again, beyond the metagaming accusation, what does it matter?
In your scenario above. The fighter beat the assassin's and the PC bard's initiative. He gets to swing his mighty sword first. He doesn't know that the assassins are fey and he needs cold-iron to bypass their DR/20 cold iron. The bard knows and as soon as he can say something, the fighter will know.
Does the bard get to inform the fighter in-time to quickdraw his cold-iron great-axe before the fey-assassins shiv the fighter again and he goes unconscious?
I wouldn't call it meta-gaming, but there is a mechanical difference based on whether they can speak while flat-footed.
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This seems to be a point of contention for a lot of people. Flat-footed condition states you are "unable to react normally to the situation." Some people argue that since you cannot take immediate actions while flat-footed, you also cannot speak. I argue that since speaking doesn't say you can't do it while flat-footed AND that since it is POSSIBLE to ATTACK while flat-footed through use of Combat Reflexes, it is POSSIBLE to SPEAK while flat-footed.
I'd love to see this FAQ'd so I can stop dealing with it all the time. D:
And like many people who handle rules text wrong, you are arguing backwards. And you're committing the additional sin of false equivalency. Pathfinder isn't a game where it lists what you can't do. It's what you can do, and it's up to you to find a passage which enables you to hold conversations while you're flatfootd.
Combat reflexes only applies to attack mechanics, not speech.
This gets repeated quite a lot but it isn't true. Show me the rule that says characters can take a dump. But I don't think you'll find a lot of support for the theory that they can't.
Quite a few things are implied to be possible, quite a few other things require rules to be possible. It's not so clear-cut as you're trying to make it look here.
In this case there's a rule that says you can talk, even when it's not your turn. There's no rule that specifically says you can't talk while flat-footed, so the general rule stands that you can.
The only thing against it is the "reacting normally", which is open to interpretation in either direction.