Alyrs reads
"If deated you may immedatly attempt to close the locaiton this hencman came from; if you do display this card next to your deck. While displayed, the difficulty of your checks is increased by 2. At the state of your turn, 1 character at your lcoation may succeed at a divine 9 check to banish this card."
That all seems clear, but the scenario rules for 'Crusader's Legacy' say
"when you defeat Alyrs Harnaste, shuffle him into an open random location deck."
So, what happens when I defeat Alrys? Do I display him? Do I reshuffle him? Should the rules actually instruct me to reshuffle him when he is banished not defeated?
By raw I would say the Golden Rule says that scenarios override the henchman cards, so Alyrs would be shuffled.
If you can't shuffle him into an open random location deck, his other text kicks in and he gets displayed (I think).
If he gets banished, he gets banished, I guess.
If you can't shuffle him into an open random location deck, you can't possibly be encountering him, because that would mean that every location is permanently closed...
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You may immediately attempt to close. Immediately takes priority, so if you choose to do so you display him because that's a trigger of the "immediately" action. Your close check difficulty is +2. After that check (which comes before the scenario power because of the word "immediately"), you shuffle him into an open random location deck. If somehow he is displayed at the start of your turn (maybe he is used in another scenario where the shuffle power doesn't exist?), then you activate that part of his power.
Don't you just love when Vic does that :-)
Thanks for the quick reply, Vic. For once my attempts to weird your mind and guess the way the rules should have been written was successful.
Okay, it looks like that would work then. Maybe.
-When you defeat him, you get to close the location. If you do, you display him (and have to succeed at a check to banish. But if you do that, he goes into an open location deck instead.)
-If you close a location that he is in with another henchman or you close it by defeating the villain, that location closes. I'm a little unclear on this, mostly because of the "you would". It's not defined in the rulebook, but "you would" is a replacement effect that replaces the banish, so technically Alrys gets shuffled into a random open location before the banish happens. I'm not sure how atomic a "thing" is for the "finish one thing before you begin another" rule, but I'll just assume all of the location closing stuff happens as an atomic action.
-If he gets banished while at the last location via a henchman and the villain is there, he stays at that location because the location is still open. He gets shuffled in with the villain.
-If you defeat the villain while he is at the last location, then he can't be shuffled because the location is closed (even though it's technically irrelevant since the scenario is won)
Do I have all this correct?
Chief Technical Officer
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The scenario text should say "When you would banish Alrys Harnaste, shuffle him into a random open location deck."
The FAQ for AD 3 won't go up until next week; when it does, it'll include this.
It now includes this.
:D... I missed this and we just played crusaders legacy last night. We ended up treating him like a giant magic armored fly that couldn't be defeated and kept getting reshuffled into random deck without able to triggger the close location condition.
Thankfully we managed to knock him out after he flew into the deck with the villian and got banished with the other cards..
So the proper way is :
1. Defeat him, attempt to close.
2. He gets displayed next to char
3. Whenever anyone does the divine to banish or he ends up under villian and supposed to get banish, he comes back to haunt a random open deck.
I read that as you do that if you attempt to close the location, before you succeed or fail. So Alrys will make any check involved with closing that location more difficult.
If you choose to not attempt to close the location, Alrys would be banished, so the scenario power kicks in and Alrys is shuffled into a random open location deck.
I read that as you do that if you attempt to close the location, before you succeed or fail.
I'm not really sure about this, considering it says "you may IMMEDIATELY attempt to close". Maybe my background gives me a skewed perspective on things, but I'm not considering a player on the table saying "Yeah, I'll attempt that" as an actual *attempt*, as up to actually rolling for close, he can always go "Nah, I changed my mind". So I'm loking at this situation from the "how would this be resolved in a computer game* perspective. So, the only way the *game* would know you've decided to attempt is when you actually roll the dice/complete closing action; it is only then that you've attempted and that Alrys will get displayed, which meshes pretty well with my understanding of "immediately" on the card's text.
What arguments are there to support Alrys gets displayed before you've actually attempted the close?
So I'm loking at this situation from the "how would this be resolved in a computer game* perspective....
This is the whole point : this is NOT a computer game and shouldn't be (the digital verion will end up being different BECAUSE there are fun and clever stuff on a bordgame that you cannot keep fun and cleer on a screen.
I hope Mike and consorts will NEVER take a decision for the boardgame based on what it would be in digital. Digital will adapt, not the opposite.
I hope Mike and consorts will NEVER take a decision for the boardgame based on what it would be in digital. Digital will adapt, not the opposite.
I agree but that wasn't my point. I'm using the 'computer' as a reference of a purely *logical* POV, which eliminates the IRL communication and interaction of players as a game-affecting factor. I.e. a player just saying "Hey guys, I'm gonna do this thing or that" cannot in my view be a valid *trigger* for an in-game action. This trigger would be the playing of a card or rolling the dice required by a power, or something similar.
I read the "If defeated, you may immediately attempt to close the location this henchman came from; if you do, display this card next to your deck.", as "WHEN you do, display this card...", and the WHEN condition is not met until the player actually does what is required by the "When closing" power box.
I'm also with Hawkmoon, you display him if you decide you wish to attempt to close the location. This means any closing check will have its difficulty increased.
Look at the grammar of the sentence, "if you do" has an implicit object, which based on context is what preceded it in the sentence. In this case the clause that preceded it is "attempt to close the location." Therefore, if you attempt to close the location, you display him next to your deck.
The "immediately" does not preclude mandatory effects from happening as a result of the attempt, or even non-mandatory powers that trigger based on the effect. It just means you can't do anything unrelated before that, such as play other cards or use unrelated powers.
Well this is a fun debate! I'm actually with Longshot on this one. From a logic standpoint, you haven't attempted to close the location until you actually make the attempy; and the henchman wouldn't be displayed until after you make that attempt. I can see how it might be viewed a different way, but from an IF/THEN perspective, the way it reads the attempt must actually occur before the displaying does.
I hope Mike and consorts will NEVER take a decision for the boardgame based on what it would be in digital. Digital will adapt, not the opposite.Are these Mike's consorts? Or just everyone's consorts? So many questions here, the answers to all of them really being none of my / our business...
Hey now. Married man, here.
Hey now. Married man, here.I hope Mike and consorts will NEVER take a decision for the boardgame based on what it would be in digital. Digital will adapt, not the opposite.Are these Mike's consorts? Or just everyone's consorts? So many questions here, the answers to all of them really being none of my / our business...
consort: The spouse of a monarch.
who are tasked with execution.
Good thing I don't live near them, I may have enough time to run and hide should my character die in Organized Play.
Look at the grammar of the sentence, "if you do" has an implicit object, which based on context is what preceded it in the sentence. In this case the clause that preceded it is "attempt to close the location." Therefore, if you attempt to close the location, you display him next to your deck.We seem to be in agreement on this. Where we differ is, I don't see how "if you attempt to close the location" equals
IF YOU DECIDE YOU WISH TO ATTEMPT to close the location.
In fact, from the very way you have phrased your sentence, I would think it obvious DECIDING to close and DOING it are two different things, and the card's text only cares about the latter.
Look at the grammar of the sentence, "if you do" has an implicit object, which based on context is what preceded it in the sentence. In this case the clause that preceded it is "attempt to close the location." Therefore, if you attempt to close the location, you display him next to your deck.We seem to be in agreement on this. Where we differ is, I don't see how "if you attempt to close the location" equalsIF YOU DECIDE YOU WISH TO ATTEMPT to close the location.In fact, from the very way you have phrased your sentence, I would think it obvious DECIDING to close and DOING it are two different things, and the card's text only cares about the latter.
It follows from "Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else." You have an opportunity to close, at that point in time you must immediately decide if you want to take that opportunity or not. Then before you start something else (e.g. the close attempt), you finish following the powers on Alrys Harnaste which instruct you to display him next to your deck based on the decision you just made. Now that you've finished that, you move on to the close attempt itself.
So it could be that everyone at Paizo and Lone Shark are kings and queens, and that Mike is the emperor, and that the decisions for PACG are made by everyone's spouses in conjunction with Mike. And then these decisions are dictated to the royalty, who are tasked with execution.
I assure you that Guybrush is the highest ranking decision maker at Lone Shark.
That's the second biggest dog with goggles driving a car I've ever seen!
Héhé i'm happy I started such a fun discussion.
This said, in french "consort" means 2 things:
- Someone who shares your fate (con- = with ; sort = fate)
- By extension in the legal arena, any litigant having a common interest with the plaintiff
In the UK and the americas, somehow over time it was interestingly "reduced" to the husband of the queen (prince-consort).
Rest assure Mike I was using the french version :-)
I assure you that Guybrush is the highest ranking decision maker at Lone Shark.
It is now official, the next PACG adventure box is delayed because Mummies will be replaced by steampunk doggy background world
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I assure you that Guybrush is the highest ranking decision maker at Lone Shark.It is now official, the next PACG adventure box is delayed because Mummies will be replaced by steampunk doggy background world
I would 100% be on board with PACG Alkenstar, despite the current glaring lack of an AP set there. (Alkenstar = steampunk part of Golarion)
There might just be a teeny-tiny bit of Alkenstar in this newly announced class deck.
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Chief Technical Officer
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There's one thing I'd like clarification on regarding Alrys Harnaste in the Crusader's Legacy Scenario:
"...
If defeated, you may immediately attempt to close the location this henchman came from; if you do, display this card next to your deck. Bla bla bla."The "if you do" part refers to "if you do attempt to close" or does it refer to "if you do close". i.e.: Do you display Alrys Harnaste next to your deck after you choose to attempt to close a location (regardless if you succeed or not) or do you display him next to your deck only if you succeed at closing.
Also, am I right that you can bypass the "display" part of Alrys Harnaste if you choose not to attempt to close the location after defeating him. In that case I know the location would still be open, but you might have a chance of shuffling Alrys Harnaste in another random open location... (difficulty of checks increased by 2 can be brutal in a solo game with a character who doesn't have Divine as a skill...)
You display him only if you succeed in closing the location. Added to FAQ.