Feedback on the Warlock and the Vigilante in general

[cartmanbeck]

Alright, so I've now played one full session over roll20 with a lvl 4 Warlock, and i'm in a PFS play-by-post with a 1st-level Warlock as well. Here are my thoughts:

At 1st level, i'm feeling like just a weak Sorcerer. The social persona doesn't give much of anything at such a low level either. A few 1st-level spells just doesn't give you much to work with, and the 150gp PFS staring gold doesn't go far for scrolls and such, so I'm mostly tossing an acid splash every round.

At 4th level I was feeling much more useful, and I really enjoyed the mystic bolts (even with nerfed damage). I was using them with Two-weapon Fighting, though there are suggestions that I could have also used Rapid Shot to get a third bolt in a full attack... is that true?

Now, flavor-wise, I LOVE this class. The PFS game I'm playing has several VERY colorful characters, including a Tengu DARKWING DUCK. Not kidding. The first few posts of that scenario made me love the Vigilante no matter what the rules content of it end up being.

The 1-minute change time makes a lot more sense than 5 minutes, so good job there. I think the biggest thing I would suggest is to give the Warlock something else to use at 1st level... not sure what it would be at the moment though.

[Alric Rahl]

I too love the Warlock, A warlock only gets 1 less spell per day than a sorcerer of the same level and stat. I don't know what first level spells you were choosing but I personally liked grease and Glue seal.

I think it has been clarified that, yes, you can use Rapid Shot with them to get that extra bolt. but don't quote me as im not sure where the actual quote is.

I honestly dont think the Warlock needs anything more at 1st level. But if I had to choose I would say 1 more spell per day so it would be in line with a Sorcerer. Or perhaps just say the class gets Arcane Training I as its inherent spellcasting and make Mystic Bolts our Base ability.

This way you still have magic at 1st level but still must spend talents to increase the spellcasting.

But again I personally dont feel this change is needed.

[cartmanbeck]

Yeah I feel like there is just... SOMETHING missing at 1st level. Sorcerers also get a bloodline power at 1st level, which often gives a 3+Cha per day spell-like ability. I don't think that mystic bolts at 1st level is necessarily the missing thing, but SOMETHING. :)

[Terminalmancer]

Have you tried playing a warlock up through the intermediate levels? My experience with the Zealot has been, so far, that the levels between the major "build critical" talents can be kind of painful. I'm curious if it's just me.

[Trekkie90909]

Re Rapid Shot:

Rapid Shot wrote:

When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round at your highest bonus. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.

Mystic bolt is treated like a light weapon in melee or otherwise like a ranged weapon.

I find that acid splash, daze, grease, and color spray make first level fine for any arcane caster and often outclass any relevant level 1 abilities. Glue seal's just fun :P.

That said if you aren't benefiting from dual identity or the social ability it can feel very bland.

[Zwordsman]

armour casting would be nice at first level.

That way your like a weak sorcerer. but you have light armour, so you could potentially use a weapon or play the flank budy. If you didn't care for acid splash guy.

Like weaponfinesse build guys could pick up a sword at level 1 and not be terrible, and pfs gold can get some armour and weapons at least.

Think that would be good and fair since it would be of real benefit to thoe who are doing TWF with melee touch attacks in medium armour later on (with combat casting)
or for those who are wanting to TWF rapid shot at range in light (since 30ft max range is more than chargable)

[Alric Rahl]

Unfortunately I havent and wont get him past 3rd. I committed to playing a Mesmerist for our campaign but am only playtesting the Vigilante until OA comes out so I can retune my Mesmerist. If I could get into another game I would play him higher. That said, my plan for him is to take Bombs at 2nd and I would be switching off the Arcane Training and Bomb talents at appropriate levels (4th would be Arcane Training 2, 6th would be a bomb and so on). I might take Signature Spell as a one off talent just to make either Glue Seal or Grease be my primary spell.

I was using my social persona just to throw in funny moments with the other PC's, like trying to pickpocket one of the other PC's on the first encounter with the Social. but otherwise havent used him for any face like activity. then again we have only played one session so far so might come up more later. The greatest thing I did with my Social, my Vigilante Identity left while they were finishing up the fight (yes I left in the middle of combat), was go into the building of the Loan shark (passed right by the PC's as they were leaving) we had just beaten up and left tied up and coup de graced him and left a note for the bbeg saying "the Joker is coming for you Clegg". the Other PC's dont know I did this and funny thing is neither do the players as I told the gm while they were discussing something else.

However we are playing Second Darkness and I feel his Social Identity would disappear and not come back into play once we started exploring the Underdark.

That aside, even though I wont get him higher, I feel like it wouldnt be much of a problem in between the build critical talents. since I now have bombs and spells I can switch off and wont use up all my resources in one fight. plus my Vigilante is more of a tail them and show up during combat but leave before it ends kind of guy (this has pissed off one PC to no end so far and its only been the first session with him). And if worse comes to worse he can just fall back on Acid Splash or a weapon, or do that anyway and not use resources.

[cartmanbeck]

I think light armor casting would make it more feasible, yes. That might be just the bit this class needs at 1st level, especially given that the Zealot can cast just fine in any armor.

[Ting-Tang]

I'll piggyback on this thread since I also played a Vigilante Warlock this past weekend. I went Gish with mine wielding a Glaive at Lvl 1 and then a Horsechopper at Lvl 2. Combat Reflexes for multiple AoOs.

I'm playing a Wayang Vigilante in PFS and played the first level of Emerald Spire and Murder's Mark over the weekend.

The Social Persona of course was non existant but I am hoping at higher levels and a few magic items later flesh out that persona. My Female Wayang was Adopted by Cheliaxian Halfings and my Social persona will evenatully be as a Female Halfing of some sort. Likely a servant.

For the two first level Spells I chose Vanish and Color Spray. At 2nd level added Expeditious Retreat for more movement.

The basic concept is to Vanish, move into position and get multiple AoO's each round. Worked well in Emerald Spire although I did get surrounded at one point and was knocked unconscious when I should have probable moved into hiding.

For lack of choices I went with Arcane Striker as my Vigilante Talent at 2nd. I really want to do something with Tattoo Chamber but that will be for later levels likely.

One Talent I would like to see shared amongst all of the Vigilante Specializations is an option to take a Single Talent from another Specialization. Obviously the base ability and sub Talents for those are out but I think it would give a little more flexibility overall to the class.

I did a small rebuild before Murder's Mark and changed my Halfling racial Talent from Helpful to Wild Shadow from Hearts of the Wild. Selecting the Urban Ranger terrain so I could Stealth in buildings, street and sewers like a proper Vigilante.

It will allow me to be a little more flexible on spell choices as I go up in levels but I still like Vanish.

So far I am liking the Warlock. It's not as powerful as the Magus but it's not supposed to be.

[cartmanbeck]

I totally agree that letting you dip a talent from another vigilante specialization should definitely be an option.

[Logan Bonner]

cartmanbeck wrote:

I was using them with Two-weapon Fighting, though there are suggestions that I could have also used Rapid Shot to get a third bolt in a full attack... is that true?

Yes, the intent is (for playtest round 2 at least) that you can do both. I'll probably add some clarifying wording later on since this is kind of a weird case.

Thanks for playtesting!