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This has almost certainly come up somewhere before, but I haven't found it if it has.
I have to ask: Is there any alternative/archetype yet that changes Finesse training for something useful for rogues who aren't Dexterity based? Considering that Rogues can be basically fighters, surely this is something that comes up a lot.
Largely asking because I hate the "Rogues are Dex-based" sterotypes (I've done a total of 7 rogues and only one of them has been dex based), so some sort of replacement for an otherwise useless and backwards ability would be much appreciated.
There is not.
The point of that class feature was to make non-strength rogues viable, since strength rogues were more powerful than the iconic dexterity based rogues.
Yeah, I guess that was what I was expecting. Seems like a weird and unnecessary thing to do though, especially for all those characters that aren't Dexterity based. I'd always thought of there being plenty of options that would do the same thing. That said, maybe there aren't; I tend not to maximise any abilities in favour of having a well rounded character (If you dump an ability, you're asking for it and you'd better live with the consequences).
I was looking for something like maybe some skill focused thing. Or anything more rogue-y at that. Weapon Finesse? Really?
Skill focus probably wouldn't be out of place, for example. Or Combat Expertise. A rogue talent that does the same thing, and an extra talent at level 1?
That last is probably how I'd run it, come to think of it. That's a lot more thematic than just giving Finesse Training.
I'm just sort of peeved that now all my rogues have an ability that makes absolutely no sense flavour-wise, and there's no official replacement. Hopefully that will be fixed in future.
Anyway, thanks for that. You've answered the question, even if I don't like the answer.
It is 3PP, but Legendary Rogues by Legendary Games does give similar alternatives to what you are talking about.
That sounds excellent, thanks! I'll see if I can nab a copy and get back to this...
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Rogues were pretty much always intended to be dex based characters...
It just so happened that the original rogue sucked as a dex based character and was more competent as a strength based character. This was finally corrected with the Unchained Rogue. There is now almost no reason to give yourself more than 12/13 strength.
If you want a strength based rogue, go play a slayer.
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I'd strongly contest that Rogues were intended to be dex based. If anything, I'd say they were designed to be Mental focused to get maximum utility out of their skills.
When you think of a lot of the classic rogues, you end up with charming people, or Pirates, or Lawyers, or musicians (Sure, these are bards, but they suit rogue pretty well too). You've got thugs and gang members. Rogues make awesome crafters, too, or odd-jobs people. They've always been skill focused. True, there are the pickpockets and the sneaks and other burglars, but they're a minority. Saying rogues are Dex based is like saying rogues are all chaotic. It's buying into a small subset of the whole and not even remotely true.
In hindsight, I should have called the thread "Adaptations for non-dex rogues"... I was just looking for a strength alternative at the time, and the other options didn't occur to me until later.
In any case, since posting this thread, I've decided that probably the most sensible thing to do is make Finesse Training a Rogue talent available from level 1 and give an extra rogue talent at level 1, which you have to admit, is a better option in every respect. More versatility, more flavour and more sense. Why they didn't do this in the first place I have no idea.
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In hindsight, I should have called the thread "Adaptations for non-dex rogues"... I was just looking for a strength alternative at the time, and the other options didn't occur to me until later.
In any case, since posting this thread, I've decided that probably the most sensible thing to do is make Finesse Training a Rogue talent available from level 1 and give an extra rogue talent at level 1, which you have to admit, is a better option in every respect. More versatility, more flavour and more sense. Why they didn't do this in the first place I have no idea.
I like your solution and I will probably add this to my pile of houserules.
I'd strongly contest that Rogues were intended to be dex based. If anything, I'd say they were designed to be Mental focused to get maximum utility out of their skills.
When you think of a lot of the classic rogues, you end up with charming people, or Pirates, or Lawyers, or musicians (Sure, these are bards, but they suit rogue pretty well too). You've got thugs and gang members. Rogues make awesome crafters, too, or odd-jobs people. They've always been skill focused. True, there are the pickpockets and the sneaks and other burglars, but they're a minority. Saying rogues are Dex based is like saying rogues are all chaotic. It's buying into a small subset of the whole and not even remotely true.
In hindsight, I should have called the thread "Adaptations for non-dex rogues"... I was just looking for a strength alternative at the time, and the other options didn't occur to me until later.
In any case, since posting this thread, I've decided that probably the most sensible thing to do is make Finesse Training a Rogue talent available from level 1 and give an extra rogue talent at level 1, which you have to admit, is a better option in every respect. More versatility, more flavour and more sense. Why they didn't do this in the first place I have no idea.
Rogues are no more charming than anyone else with ranks in diplomacy. They have no special capability to use diplomacy, bluff, or intimidate better than anyone else. So they are only as charming as someone else who does the bear minimum (investing skill ranks) to be so.
Rogue make terrible craftsman, as do all non-magical crafters. This is a problem with the craft rules and the insane amount of time it takes to craft mundane items with high costs. And rogues can't even craft magical items without the Master Craftsman feat. And again, at that point everyone else is pretty much on par the rogue if the make the same minimal investments.
Rogues are only int based in the sense that they have a lot of skill points and you can push it further by giving them more int.
Claxon
On the contrary, with Rogue's Edge, Rogues are way better than any other class at being charming. Or indeed, at any other skill. For example, with diplomacy, being able to influence attitude in a single round is frankly amazing. It's almost like Mass Charm Monster, but with no save. Those skill unlocks are really good. Plus, the rogue talent that let you reroll skill checks, combined with being amazingly good at them, and maybe a skill focus or two (Human's Focused Study alternate race trait is excellent for this) ends up making Rogues amazing at pretty much every skill, and better than every other class.
As for mundane crafting, I'm going to point you at Master Alchemist. True, Alchemists are better at this than others, but Skill unlocks mean that Rogues can be better than anyone else at other forms.
The revised crafting rules in Unchained are also a lot better than the old ones, and while mundane crafting isn't as fast, it's possible to make a decent profit from it (which is also why it's slower).
Case in point: My level 5 Alchemist with Master Alchemist was able to make a profit of over 3,000 gp every week using these rules and master alchemist (Obviously my GM banned this feat when he realised). But obviously if there were feats like this for other craft skills as well then other crafting would be quite valid (and also faster than magical crafting), and rogues would easily be the best at them (The skill unlock for level 5 is double speed, so there's a win already). If you've got a lenient GM there'd be a reasonable argument for allowing variants with other craft skills. 1/4 price magic item crafting at faster speeds, and being able to sell it for twice what you made it for sounds like a good use of three feats to me. Who needs to be optimised when you can have loads of cash?
Or if for some reason you're at level 20, rogues basically get all the crafting feats for free. That alone makes high level Rogues the best crafting class by a very, very long way.
Also, I didn't say Int based. I said Mental Based. Since most skills are Mental Based... Can't deny that rogues don't benefit from having a decent modifier in every mental ability score.
Maybe it's just me being weird, but I have never made the connection between Rogues and being Dexterity based. There was never anything that rogues had that made me go "Wow, this character would be great with a lot of Dexterity". Well, obviously there is now, but even so, my proposed solution would still be better.
Ohako
I like your style! Any non-magic character that doesn't care if it's Str or Dex that drops is okay by me.
Everyone
Um, sorry. I've sort of rambled here. And been the annoying person who continues an argument much longer than necessary.
Wolin- Only if Skill Unlocks are only allowed for Rogues. I think you will find that most people are not running them as such, simply giving the Rogues extra ones for free and allowing other classes to take the Unlocks as the feat.
What about Master Craftsman? Anyone can take that feat. That doesn't make the Rogue better than anyone else that wants to make the investment. And again, level 20 stuff? Get out of here. 95% of games never make it that far. Most never make it to level 15. It's all well and good to look at what you could do, but you'll never actually get to a point where you can use it. That makes it worthless.
As far as mental vs just int. Int governs the number of skills you get. Charisma and Wisdom will merely provide a slight bonus to the overall skill check. Honestly, after level 10 it's not that big of a component of your check. You're looking at a maybe a +3 to the check, that will do nothing else for you except make you slightly better at a skill. Oh, Wisdom will give you a better Will save. So I guess that's not nothing.
Rogue's don't get any real reward for investing in Charisma or Wisdom.
Oops, got distracted there.
I should probably say that it's not necessarily having the most powerful overall character possible that I want. I want to optimise things for a specific purpose, or just not as powerful as other options available.
I've played a sorcerer with a starting charisma of 12, and things making their saves or not being able to cast spells was never an issue that some token coin couldn't fix (it's only at level 10 when 5th level spells come along, and by that time 4,000 gp for the headband of alluring Charisma +2 is nothing). They ended up being pretty good at melee combat because I could invest a lot into physical abilities instead.
Or indeed, one of my favourites is the Half-orc Dazzling Display Thug. Basically hammering Intimidate really hard in exchange for being able to just inflict the frightened condition for a round on EVERYTHING IN A 30 FT RADIUS with no save. If it didn't just run away, he could sneak attack things really easily using Shatter Defenses and Surprise Follow-through.
I compared it to how well he'd work as a slayer at the same level, and while he could get the higher level feats slightly quicker, the main difference was really that he had an extra +2 to hit and AC and an extra 8 HP, but regularly did 2d6 less damage per hit typically, couldn't inflict frightened, and was actually taking *more* damage typically because he lacked Rouge's defensive abilities. Oh, and he couldn't also inflict Sicken with his sneak attack. Basically, the rogue was quite a lot more effective than the slayer at doing the same thing.
Point I'm getting at there is that you can actually do really well and have a character that's a lot more fun if you don't take the conventional route. But, if you're stuck with an ability that not only doesn't match your flavour but is completely useless, it does make it tough to develop them in the way you want.
Godwyn - Vigilante Stalker is actually perfect for that sort of thing, good thinking. It's not the flavour I want, but it's a good idea. Vigilante is a class I really like anyway, so I'll keep it in mind.
Archaeik - That's a good point there. That said, I don't particularly consider that to be a major downfall, since there are other classes (such as witch) that can get that sort of feat from level 1. If it's a problem I suppose they could add a 2nd level rogue requirement to it. Personally I tend to spend my rogue talents on combat feats anyway
Claxon - Well, I guess if you allow other classes to take away from something that's been put in to let rogues do better, then sure, they don't have any special advantage compared to people who invest in it. Personally I'd keep it rogue only for precisely that reason. Although apparently that's just me from what you're saying.
Dexterity to damage has been a thing people have wanted for quite a while, and it's not like it's been a rogue-only thing that people have wanted, either. Giving it to rogue for free is like giving it to a fighter or magus or monk or what have you, and they don't need dex to damage any more than rogue does (well, maybe monk does a little more). Particularly with a class like Rogue that's extremely versatile, having something that needlessly limits its versatility like finesse training really irks me.
Okay, yes, level 20 was a bad example there. I sort of went off on a tangent and tried to say mundane crafting is actually really good, which it is. But again, I guess if you're allowing other classes to take skill unlocks then rogue stops being better than anyone else at it. Rogues can just take extra stuff on top of it to be incredible (x100 mundane craft speed at level 15 compared to the 10x with just the feat? that's already at least 6 times faster than regular magic crafting, *and* at a profit)
Slayer doesn't say "I'm strength based" to me any more than rouge says "I'm Dexterity based". It's clearly just based on where you want to specialise. Some classes benefit from focusing more on one ability than others regardless of what they are, but rouge is definitely not one of them. Rogue has the versatility to be anything at all, and this sort of limitation isn't helpful at all.
More Proposed Solutions
Perhaps access to low level fighter feats might be a nice variant. It's not like fighters are alone in getting these anymore, *and* rogues only get one feat less than fighters anyway.
A bonus feat not restricted to combat feats is another nice alternative, and lets those non-combat focused characters to do a little something extra.
I do like the Swashbuckler's Charmed Life. Suits rogue pretty well too...
This has almost certainly come up somewhere before, but I haven't found it if it has.
I have to ask: Is there any alternative/archetype yet that changes Finesse training for something useful for rogues who aren't Dexterity based? Considering that Rogues can be basically fighters, surely this is something that comes up a lot.
Largely asking because I hate the "Rogues are Dex-based" sterotypes (I've done a total of 7 rogues and only one of them has been dex based), so some sort of replacement for an otherwise useless and backwards ability would be much appreciated.
I more dislike the stereo type that only rogues need to be rogues. If you're strength based, just be a fighter or something and say you're a rogue. skill based, be a bard, want skills, sneak attack and strength with no magic, be a slayer. Want to focus on skills especially be an investigator and take skill focus feats. so many options, stop thinking the ROGUE specifically needs to do them.
It's not just dex to damage that was the issue, that was what finally allowed the iconic image to function.
It's because the iconic image of rogues was a two weapon fighting character with two daggers who sneaks about and stabs things to death.
But the mechanics of two weapon fighting dictated that you need to have a pretty high dex to make it work suitably. It didn't help that rogues didn't have access to heavy armor without spending feats, meaning they were again forced to pursue dexterity to gain AC without being incredibly behind other classes. Mithral breastplate with armor expert trait helped, because it had a decently high max dex, but with the trait made it have effectively 0 ACP so it didn't matter that you weren't actually proficient in it. But that was still just a Band-Aid.
Coupled with the fact that weapon finesse was available as a rogue talent, the whole class was basically set up and emphasized to be a dex class.
Except that you are right that the old rogue was more effective if you eschewed all those built in assumptions and simply didn't take TWF and wielded a big two-handed sword, with a big strength score, and spent the feats to get heavy armor you could eschew dex as an old rogue and were honestly much more effective for it.
But now, with all the changes to the unchained rogue there isn't really a reason not to be dex based.
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You can go with the Classic Rogue instead of the Unchained one.
You'll be able to take some Rogue Talents that would otherwise be unavailable.
That being said, I did write an archetype for Strong Rogues which I hope gets released some day. grumble grumble editors grumble