|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
This question has only come up in passing a couple times before (HERE and HERE), but I wanted to explore it more in depth.
Since you "count as your own ally", can you gain the benefits of Outflank when using the feat Circling Mongoose?
You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."
When you are adjacent to a foe, as a full-round action, you can take a full-attack action to make melee attacks against the foe, moving 5 feet before each attack. You must move 5 feet before each melee attack you make, and can’t exceed your maximum speed, exceed your maximum number of attacks in a round, or attack any other target until the beginning of your next turn. You must remain adjacent to the foe, and your movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal unless you succeed at the appropriate Acrobatics checks. If your first attack against the foe hits, you are considered to be flanking the foe on your second attack. Subsequent attacks made as part of the full-attack action continue to be treated as if you were flanking the foe until one of your attacks misses, at which point your attacks are treated normally.
Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature, your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4. In addition, whenever you score a critical hit against the flanked creature, it provokes an attack of opportunity from your ally.I've encountered 3 distinct possibilities from talking to others about this:
- The combination does not work at all. This would "make no sense or be impossible" according to the FAQ.
- Your flanking bonus would increase to +4, but you would not benefit from the AoO on a critical hit.
- You'd gain the full benefits of Outflank, since "your ally" (you) also possesses Outflank.
Outflank can't consider you an ally, because if it would, it wouldn't need to be a teamwork feat.
Consider the following: you have Outflank, your ally hasn't. You and that ally are flanking a creature. If you counted as your own ally for Outflank, Outflank's bonus would trigger, because you and an ally who also has the feat (you) are flanking the same creature. Obviously, Outflank doesn't consider you your own ally.
Circling Mongoose doesn't imply you flank with yourself as a partner, just that you are considered to be flanking. When you're not explicitly defined as your own partner, nothing changes for purposes of Outflank.
|
|
So, Dimensional Savant works with Outflank because of the line "You can effectively flank with yourself", but Circling Mongoose doesn't work with Outflank because it just states "you are considered to be flanking"?
I don't really see how dimensional savant is letting you bypass the wording of outflank either.
"You and an ally" is pretty clearly requiring two people. To ignore this is to create very strange situations with outflank as discussed.
The argument above appears to be about whether it's something you should allow anyway (houserule, effectively) rather than about how the rules are actually laid out.
Well you can say "Alone with myself", and it would be a valid saying. I dont see anyting RAW preventing it.
So its like saying "Whenever you and an ally (that you are considered to be due to circumstances) who also has this feat (obviously, as this is you!) are flanking the same bla bla hax op break system..."
Is it possible? Yes. Makes sense? That is not for me to decide.
Also, does "score critical hit" means they dont even need to confirm it?
So, Dimensional Savant works with Outflank because of the line "You can effectively flank with yourself", but Circling Mongoose doesn't work with Outflank because it just states "you are considered to be flanking"?
I don't really see how dimensional savant is letting you bypass the wording of outflank either.
"You and an ally" is pretty clearly requiring two people. To ignore this is to create very strange situations with outflank as discussed.
The argument above appears to be about whether it's something you should allow anyway (houserule, effectively) rather than about how the rules are actually laid out.
I think the very fact that you're actually flanking with yourself is already a very strange situation to begin with. In the context of that situation, I don't see why Outflank wouldn't work. There are actually two parties involved in the flanking: you and you. Allowing Outflank to work in this situation isn't any stranger than what Dimensional Savant already allows you to do.
Also, does "score critical hit" means they dont even need to confirm it?I know I've seen this addressed and don't remember if it was a FAQ, but essentially "score" == "confirm" and confirm is noted as the preferred language for aspiring rules authors.
Quite frankly, it also includes actually doing damage with said critical as that's part and parcel of simply "scoring a hit".
Just to confirm here is a helpful linky type thing.
As to the OP, as with any rules combination you will get interprative differences. I doubt you will get a hard and fast definitive answer. that said put me in the camp that there is a difference between "you are considered flanking" which wouldn't grant you the benefits of outflank and "you can effectively flank with yourself" which would.
Well you can say "Alone with myself", and it would be a valid saying. I dont see anyting RAW preventing it.
The problem is that intepreting it this way still creates a situation where 'you and you' lets you outflank without another person even without mongoose/savant.
All teamwork feats are clearly intended to require two people to take the feat to use - if you let 'and an ally' count as yourself, outflank isn't the only feat to become highly problematic. There's a bunch of teamwork feats which are 'you and an ally threaten an opponent'.
For example - by this logic cooperative rend would never require a second person as 'you an yourself' always threaten an opponent. There is a big long list of issues that arise from this interpretation.
Ally: Do you count as your own ally?
You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."
Unless it makes no sense. The wording of the teamwork feat clearly indicates that it requires two people who have the feat. Neither dimensional dervish or circling mongoose apply.