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Are you flat-footed if ready for combat and aware of the opponent prior to rolling initiative? This is something my group debates on especially since rules on this are vague and assume every combat is an ambush in the woods.
For example, let's say your party knows there's enemies on the other side of a door. Those enemies know your party is coming and have their weapons ready to fight. Your party gets ready and bashes in the door, prompting your GM to call for initiative.
1) RAW, everyone is flat-footed because the GM did not call for initiative and no one has taken any combat action. One could also argue that flat-footed means your character isn't in motion. However, this does not make much sense and goes against the spirit of using flat-footed for ambushes and unexpected starts of combat.
2) One could argue that combat began long before the GM called for initiative. Combat technically began as soon as both parties knew of each other's presence and the GM simply did not have anyone act in initiative until a party member bashed in the door. However, this is not really RAW. It feels like the combat rules never considered this situation could occur, even though it should be quite common.
What do you think?
only if you have immediate awareness of the direct threat. being at the ready isn't enough, as you can still be taken unaware.
I would also consider opening the door a combat action and thus whomever opened it should have at the very least counted as acting in the initiative.
1) I would roll initiative and start turns as soon as one side or the other becomes aware - so before the door is bashed down. Those last moments could mean alot, especially if spells are being cast. Unless the door is bashed open in the first round, no one will be flat-footed.
2) If you are aware of your enemy but they are not aware of you, start making Stealth checks. You may or may not have strong abilities to make use of a surprise round, but at least you'll be able to act before your enemies do.
Overall, it sounds like the two teams in your example are not flat-footed.
There's nothing saying you can't use the Ready action outside of combat. So, you can ready an action for when combat starts, so your readied action will occur at the top of the initiative. The tradeoff is that a readied action is pretty limited. If you hadn't readied an action, you could have taken a full round action on your initiative.
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Aware-but-flat-footed just means the other guy was more ready than you were. You being able to act in the surprise round, or there not being a surprise round, is how being aware of imminent combat is represented in the game. But if someone goes before you in the first round and you're flat-footed to his attack, it means he was quicker than you and attacks before you're able to get your guard up (or, if out-of-rounds, you said "I put my guard up," it means that you either dropped you guard for a split second or the attack came from a direction you weren't expecting. Think o scary movies - I know something is going to jump out of the bushes, but I still jump when it does; I was "ready" for the attack, but the baddie still beat my initiative and got a cheap shot before I was really READY.
And with total respect for BandW2, I wouldn't count opening a door as a combat action because combat doesn't begin until after the door is open. I would have the character 1) open door, 2) determine surprise - PC's may all be aware, or not, depending on if they knew there were baddies on the other side; likewise, baddies may or may not be aware of PC's depending on how noisy they were, 3) everyone rolls initiative and those who are aware get to attack in initiative order. If there is no surprise, initiative just represents who was more ready, and starting off flat-footed represents the penalty for being less ready.
As for ambushes, it's totally possible, and I've seen it happen plenty of times, where a high-initiative, high-Perception PC get a surprise attack and then has high initiative, so immediately gets the first regular attack.
But if you think of two opponents running across a field at each other, neither will be flat footed by the time they hit because combat began when they started running at each other and they spend their first couple of combat actions running toward each other. Same with a pike wall waiting to receive a charge. They had time to take an action before the enemy got to them and set pikes. But if the other side somehow got to the pikemen before they had a chance to act and set pikes, the enemy would justifiable be able to attack them flat-footed because they were still getting ready - think of a slow motion action scenes, bad guys on horses closing in pikemen, pikemen captain screaming orders, soldiers stiffening and swinging pikes into position... but the bad guys get there first and hit the pikemen while their weapons still aren't ready = flat-footed.
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There's nothing saying you can't use the Ready action outside of combat. So, you can ready an action for when combat starts, so your readied action will occur at the top of the initiative. The tradeoff is that a readied action is pretty limited. If you hadn't readied an action, you could have taken a full round action on your initiative.
PRD: "The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action."
You can only ready an action in rounds.
You are right, that is a real problem with the rules. Especially because there are things you can't do out of combat. For a martial arts guy it would totally make sense to enter his fighting stance before the door is opened, but RAW he can not assume/enter the stance (activate the style) out of combat.
So it would make total sense for him starting combat BY entering his stance.
On the other hand if combat starts before the door is opened everyone except for the one opening the door could/would make ready actions which again, would need to be handles by some kind of initiative order. And that could become complicated because readied actions are handled before the action triggering it. In the end it would end up with rules-lawyering about which action is first.
TL;DR RAW doesn't help with this.
There's nothing saying you can't use the Ready action outside of combat. So, you can ready an action for when combat starts, so your readied action will occur at the top of the initiative. The tradeoff is that a readied action is pretty limited. If you hadn't readied an action, you could have taken a full round action on your initiative.PRD: "The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action."
You can only ready an action in rounds.
You don't need combat to have rounds, or else spells with rounds per level would carry over from combat to combat.
You also don't need to be in combat to perform a standard action or else you couldn't cast spells out of combat.
Hmm, only a partial answer, but those on the other side of the door have total concealment/cover until the door is open. You could apply stealth rules?
I think it is intended that the bashing of the door is a surprise round. This gives the attacker a surprise round (minus actions required to bash down the door), then it comes down to normal initiative. It adds the narrative flavor of a barbarian kicking in the door with a swift blow and his party overwhelming the defenders with such speed and fury that even though they knew it was coming, they where helpless to defend against it. Or the door is well barricaded, and it takes a full two rounds to bash down, by that time the defenders have casted buffs and readied actions.
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Two gunslingers at high noon stare each other down. One of them finally draws first. This triggers combat, and they roll initiative to see who actually shoots first. That's what initiative IS: a measure of how fast you can turn your "ready for combat that might start" into action.
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You can't ready an action outside of combat and you don't need to. If you are aware of the opposition, and they are not aware of you, you get a surprise round. If you are aware of the opposition and they are aware of you, for instance, on either side of a door, presumably they would be readying an action as well. So when you are readying an action and they are readying an action, what do you get? Initiative.
Flat-footed before your turn in the initiative is reflective that the person was able to move faster than you, even if you were expecting it.
You don't need combat to have rounds, or else spells with rounds per level would carry over from combat to combat.
You also don't need to be in combat to perform a standard action or else you couldn't cast spells out of combat.
You are mistaking rounds as "time" versus "Combat Rounds". Technically, the game should ALWAYS be in combat rounds, as time is always going forward... but then we would need rules for how long you can be "readied", fatigue modifiers to perception, etc. It's not a simulation. So, you have to figure out how to handle these corner cases.
PCs can be "ready for combat" by having their weapons out, using stealth to sneak up on a door, etc. Initiative still determines who acts first, unless one side manages to remain undetectable to the other.
There's nothing saying you can't use the Ready action outside of combat. So, you can ready an action for when combat starts, so your readied action will occur at the top of the initiative. The tradeoff is that a readied action is pretty limited. If you hadn't readied an action, you could have taken a full round action on your initiative.PRD: "The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action."
You can only ready an action in rounds.
You don't need combat to have rounds, or else spells with rounds per level would carry over from combat to combat.
You also don't need to be in combat to perform a standard action or else you couldn't cast spells out of combat.
I think the bit to bold is after your turn is over but before your next one has begun out of initiative you don't have turns (apart from as an aid to the GM).
Not saying you can't, but if you are able to Ready outside of combat, you would never roll for initiative because your action would always go after some trigger, usually first if Melkiador's "When combat starts" trigger is allowed.
You could also assume that EVERYONE "Ready's" for combat on the first round and since everyone goes at the same time, you roll initiative to see what order everyone goes in :) That would act a lot like a standard round...
And with total respect for BandW2, I wouldn't count opening a door as a combat action because combat doesn't begin until after the door is open. I would have the character 1) open door, 2) determine surprise - PC's may all be aware, or not, depending on if they knew there were baddies on the other side; likewise, baddies may or may not be aware of PC's depending on how noisy they were, 3) everyone rolls initiative and those who are aware get to attack in initiative order. If there is no surprise, initiative just represents who was more ready, and starting off flat-footed represents the penalty for being less ready.
sure it does WHEN you're opening the door to get at the baddies you know are inside, you're effecting terrain to allow you to combat more readily. it's only a move action to open a door, so standard action should still be available.
you're as ready as if the door has already been open and you saw them down the hallways and rolled initiative then.
There's nothing saying you can't use the Ready action outside of combat. So, you can ready an action for when combat starts, so your readied action will occur at the top of the initiative. The tradeoff is that a readied action is pretty limited. If you hadn't readied an action, you could have taken a full round action on your initiative.PRD: "The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action."
You can only ready an action in rounds.
opening doors is a movement action, guess you can't do that outside of combat either.
You can't ready an action outside of combat and you don't need to.
I dislike this as it really cripples people with brace weapons.
Not saying you can't, but if you are able to Ready outside of combat, you would never roll for initiative because your action would always go after some trigger, usually first if Melkiador's "When combat starts" trigger is allowed.
You could also assume that EVERYONE "Ready's" for combat on the first round and since everyone goes at the same time, you roll initiative to see what order everyone goes in :) That would act a lot like a standard round...
Readied actions are really limited. You have to specify what you are going to do when you set the trigger. So, if I say "I ready to attack the first person to come through this door", that's all I can do on my readied trigger. If an innocent comes through the door, then I either have to attack the innocent or lose my readied action.
In short, even if you allow the readied-action-out-of-combat ruling, it may still not be your best option in a given situation.
Two gunslingers at high noon stare each other down. One of them finally draws first. This triggers combat, and they roll initiative to see who actually shoots first. That's what initiative IS: a measure of how fast you can turn your "ready for combat that might start" into action.
Aye, but is the guy who lost initiative considered flat-footed? Both combatants are aware of one another. Both have their guard up against the other. However, the rules say the loser should be flat-footed.
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Are you flat-footed if ready for combat and aware of the opponent prior to rolling initiative?
Yes, you are.
This is something my group debates on especially since rules on this are vague and assume every combat is an ambush in the woods.
That is not true - the CRB many environments, woods only being just one of them, and more than one way to start an encounter with ambush being just one of them. Lots of encounters don't even have ambushes. Or woods.
Let me see if I can help your group end this debate.
For example, let's say your party knows there's enemies on the other side of a door. Those enemies know your party is coming and have their weapons ready to fight. Your party gets ready and bashes in the door, prompting your GM to call for initiative.
So far so good. Nobody is surprised. Everybody, PCs and monsters, on both sides of the door, are ready for combat. In fact, those monsters EXPECT someone to bash down the door, they're prepared for it, and ready to act.
1) RAW, everyone is flat-footed because the GM did not call for initiative and no one has taken any combat action.
But, you said the GM DID CALL FOR INITIATIVE. Everyone is now flat-footed. The guy who bashed down the door is now seeing, for the first instant, just exactly WHAT is on the other side of the door, WHERE they are, and how many of them are aiming crossbows at his face. His allies behind him are trying to see the same things for the first time. The monsters behind the door are seeing the door fly in and some invading armored guy shouting a war cry right behind that door, with his allies behind him.
Everybody is ready, but now everybody must assess the new situation and react accordingly.
The initiative roll represents this reaction time - some combatants react quicker than others.
One could also argue that flat-footed means your character isn't in motion. However, this does not make much sense and goes against the spirit of using flat-footed for ambushes and unexpected starts of combat.
There is no need to argue this. You can be in motion. Or not. You're just trying to assess a situation with brand new data (what's on the other side of the door, where it is, what it's doing) and formulate reaction to it.
2) One could argue that combat began long before the GM called for initiative. Combat technically began as soon as both parties knew of each other's presence and the GM simply did not have anyone act in initiative until a party member bashed in the door. However, this is not really RAW. It feels like the combat rules never considered this situation could occur, even though it should be quite common.
What do you think?
Wrong again. The rules ABSOLUTELY DO allow for this situation. The GM COULD call for initiative, have everyone roll stealth checks and perception checks, cast the buff spells, get into position, etc., all using rounds of combat. The CRB tells you exactly what the rules for all this is (modifiers for Perception through the door, required action to open the door, etc.). It's all in there.
Your GM could do this.
It takes way more time.
Also, it usually works AGAINST the players when I do this. Everybody is trying to sneak into position, which is OK for the rogue but horribly difficult for the paladin. Usually the monsters hear the PCs and bash open their own door and win a surprise round while the PCs are all sneaking into place.
So, as the GM, I don't start combat that early because
1. it slows down the game
2. it often gives the monsters an advantage
But the game totally does allow for this, and provide rules for it if you want to use it.
As long as you're in no hurry to finish the dungeon in the same calendar month that you started it...
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I dislike this as it really cripples people with brace weapons.
Why does it cripple people with brace weapons? If you want to spend your surprise round bracing, do it.
If your opposition is already aware of you, why shouldn't the monster have a chance to charge you before you have a chance to brace? Again, that is what initiative is for - to tell you who acts quicker.
You are a rogue, sneaking alone down the hall with a longspear. You hear orcs talking behind a door. You brace your weapon! Then you realize that the orcs are still unaware that you are there and you are just standing in a hallway. So you sneak up to the door. They are still unaware you are there. You open the door, which starts combat. They were unaware of your presence, you surprise them! Which means you have a surprise round. You spend your standard action bracing your weapon. Then normal combat starts.
Or, you are a rogue, sneaking down the hall with a longspear. You hear orcs talking behind a door, but you accidentally sneeze. The orcs hear you! Initiative starts! You lose initiative and an orc comes barreling out from behind the door at you, before you have a chance to brace yourself, but luckily, he had to spend a move action opening the door, so he can't actually attack you.
The question is really, what starts combat. In the first example, it is opening a door. In the second, it is a sneeze. Your GM tells you when combat starts. For me, awareness + awareness + willingness to fight = initiative. Awareness + obliviousness + willingness to fight = surprise round.
You are right, that is a real problem with the rules.
No, it's not a real problem at all. It's not even a fake problem.
Especially because there are things you can't do out of combat.
There is nothing that you can IN combat that you cannot also do out of combat, though by RAW, doing them technically puts you in combat when you do it.
So if you're out of combat, say, walking down a country road, and you decide to fireball that innocent goat by the side of the road ahead of you, technically you cannot do that out of combat, but as soon as you say "I fireball the goat" the GM says OK, roll for initiative, you have a surprise round because the goat didn't expect your attack."
So, technically, you're right, you couldn't fireball the goat out of combat, but you actually did exactly that - by starting combat.
In short, the first PC or monster that takes an action that should be resolved in combat rounds starts the combat.
For a martial arts guy it would totally make sense to enter his fighting stance before the door is opened, but RAW he can not assume/enter the stance (activate the style) out of combat.
So it would make total sense for him starting combat BY entering his stance.
And there you have it. In the OP's scenario, it might go like this:
GM: There's a door up ahead.Rogue: I sneak up to the door and listen
GM: You hear monsters. It sounds like they might be preparing for battle. In fact, you hear one of them say "shhh, I think someone's outside or door - get ready!"
Rogue: I quietly wave my companions forward.
Paladin: I try to sneak but I'm no good at it.
Mage: I cast Mage Armor as quietly as I can
Martial Artist: I get in my combat stance.
GM: OK, everybody roll initiative. You can get into your stance on your turn.
It could go like that. Or the GM could have put it in rounds when the rogue started sneaking up to the door. Or he could use a little of that creativity the developers always talk about and not force the martial artist to use rounds to enter a fighting stance - not quite RAW, but the developers always say we should use creativity in how we interpret rules to do what makes sense, which is not always what makes RAW.
On the other hand if combat starts before the door is opened everyone except for the one opening the door could/would make ready actions which again, would need to be handles by some kind of initiative order. And that could become complicated because readied actions are handled before the action triggering it. In the end it would end up with rules-lawyering about which action is first.
Nope.
Just have everyone Delay until the door is open. Full rounds for everyone. Of course, the monsters might have all readied their ranged attacks and turned the guy who opened the door into a pincussion of arrows, but hey, that's the risk inherent with breaching a readied defensive position.
In any case, I would begin combat with opening the door, and whoever does that uses his move action to do it. Anyone who has said "I ready" or "I delay" for that door-opening event will get their initiatives handled accordingly, everyone else needs to roll initiative normally - and if they roll higher than the initiative of the guy opening the door, I give them a chance to ready for the door opening, but if not, then they'll just be at the top of next round.
TL;DR RAW doesn't help with this.
RAW totally helps with this. Every bit of it is in there.
And the only part that might be weird, like doing in-combat stuff out of combat, is handled by making that action begin the combat, or using a little creative interpretation of the rules like the DEVs always say we should.
Yes, but you are not surprised (that is to say there is no surprise round).
However, you will be flat-footed until you have acted in combat.
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There's nothing saying you can't use the Ready action outside of combat. So, you can ready an action for when combat starts, so your readied action will occur at the top of the initiative. The tradeoff is that a readied action is pretty limited. If you hadn't readied an action, you could have taken a full round action on your initiative.PRD: "The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action."
You can only ready an action in rounds.
You don't need combat to have rounds, or else spells with rounds per level would carry over from combat to combat.
You also don't need to be in combat to perform a standard action or else you couldn't cast spells out of combat.
He's not quoting the right thing to make his argument. Look at this section in the combat part of the CRB.
Special Initiative Actions
Here are ways to change when you act during combat by altering your place in the initiative order.
This is why people say that you can't ready outside of combat. Because the rules for readying are under this header.
He's not quoting the right thing to make his argument. Look at this section in the combat part of the CRB.This is why people say that you can't ready outside of combat. Because the rules for readying are under this header.Special Initiative Actions
Here are ways to change when you act during combat by altering your place in the initiative order.
A readied action started out of combat would still effect "when you act during combat".
You are reading the sentence as, "during combat, Here are ways to change when you act...by altering your place in the initiative order.", which could be a valid way to read that sentence, but not the only way.
To me, the out of combat readied action is the closest to real life, so I prefer it. It reminds me of American Football. Your line of guys lines up against another line of guys, and then when "combat" begins, no one is surprised or flatfooted. Of course, it's obvious that the guys are "readied" for combat by their stances.
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That to me is a false comparison, since the line in football is preparing to act based on a previously agreed upon signal that everyone involved is awaiting - the snap.
Combat is not nearly so organized and neat. PF is not trying to simulate sports, it is trying to simulate combat.
You get "ready" for combat by getting out your sword, loading your crossbow, etc. But until you see the opposition, and take a moment to assess the unknown in front of you, you aren't prepared to act. If someone can do that quicker than you, they get the drop on you. Which is what initiative is.
If you can assess the unknown in front of you, without the other side doing it, you get a surprise round.
Players sometimes forget that monsters and NPCs are entitled to do the same things in combat that the PCs can do.
For a martial arts guy it would totally make sense to enter his fighting stance before the door is opened, but RAW he can not assume/enter the stance (activate the style) out of combat.
That is treating PF like a video game, much like someone who says, "I turn on stealth," even though they are standing in a field in broad daylight.
The stance or style is an abstraction of assessing the situation and preparing your body in a way that will best be able to respond to the combat situation. If you "turn on" your fighting stance before combat starts, you are just a doof standing like a crane in a hallway on the other side of a door. You can't prepare your body to respond if you can't assess the opposition, which is why you can't do it out of combat. It isn't a switch.
That to me is a false comparison, since the line in football is preparing to act based on a previously agreed upon signal that everyone involved is awaiting - the snap.
Combat is not nearly so organized and neat.
It depends on the situation. For example, if I were going blindly down a hall, then I would be using a move and so couldn't ready an action anyway. I am addressing the situation where your group of guys is "negotiating" with another group of guys and you know that at any moment things could go sideways. Or as above, your group of guys is waiting on another group of guys to beat down the door keeping you from them.
I've run games both ways. According to the rules, and also using a house rule stating that combatants who are aware of one another aren't flatfooted.
As long as you are consistent, the game works fine using either rule. So don't worry about it - play the way your group enjoys it best.
I dislike this as it really cripples people with brace weapons.Why does it cripple people with brace weapons? If you want to spend your surprise round bracing, do it.
brace your weapon before you have someone else open the door, attack anyone who comes up, if they roll higher it's impossible to have braced your weapon before they opened the door.
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I am addressing the situation where your group of guys is "negotiating" with another group of guys and you know that at any moment things could go sideways.
What you just wrote is the perfect example of initiative. You expect something to happen, but you don't know who will act first and you are aware of each other.
If everyone is ready - then everyone has the same chance of acting - and it comes down to reaction time, which is initiative.
2 groups facing each other - Fighter decides to attack, roll initiative, Rogue on other side wins initiative, throws his dagger at Fighter before he has a chance to think to defend himself (he is flat-footed). Like in movies, Rogue sees it in Fighter's eyes, or maybe the motion of the shoulders that indicate he has decided to act.
Otherwise, why roll initiative at all? The way others are describing it, Fighter decides to attack so he can attack first, initiative roll be damned. So whoever speaks up first always wins initiative and no one is ever flat-footed except in the surprise round?
brace your weapon before you have someone else open the door, attack anyone who comes up, if they roll higher it's impossible to have braced your weapon before they opened the door.
Not quite sure what you are saying here, but if they are unaware of you, brace in the surprise round. If they are aware of you, they get a chance to charge you before you can brace. That is what initiative IS. The orc says to himself, "Hey that guy has a longspear that he could brace with - I better charge him before he gets a chance!"
Saying, "I expect a fight" doesn't mean that the other guy doesn't expect it more. Even a boxer in a ring can catch the other boxer off guard.
I think the rules do a fine job of adding that feel into the game with the flat-footed rules.
brace your weapon before you have someone else open the door, attack anyone who comes up, if they roll higher it's impossible to have braced your weapon before they opened the door.Not quite sure what you are saying here, but if they are unaware of you, brace in the surprise round. If they are aware of you, they get a chance to charge you before you can brace. That is what initiative IS. The orc says to himself, "Hey that guy has a longspear that he could brace with - I better charge him before he gets a chance!"
the door is not open yet, i'm bracing it for anyone who might come through the door that going to be open in a few seconds.
Otherwise, why roll initiative at all? The way others are describing it, Fighter decides to attack so he can attack first, initiative roll be damned. So whoever speaks up first always wins initiative and no one is ever flat-footed except in the surprise round?
Initiative is useful for making informed decisions and full attacks. A readied action is not informed. It's a very strict action that can only be taken in a very strict condition. You can't just have a readied action to "do something when something happens". You have to be fairly specific about the "something". So, "Shoot my bow at the closest guy if combat starts", and that's it. You are very limited. But if I hadn't readied an action, I would be able to do so much more with my turn. I could move or cast strategically, or full attack or full withdraw or full action cast. If you ready an action, you don't even get a swift action unless the swift action is your readied action.
In short, a readied action before combat is not necessarily the best option.
Saying, "I expect a fight" doesn't mean that the other guy doesn't expect it more. Even a boxer in a ring can catch the other boxer off guard.
I think the rules do a fine job of adding that feel into the game with the flat-footed rules.
I get your point, but technically, while boxers might catch the other guy "off-guard", they don't catch the other guy flat-footed. No surprise round and the boxers start in opposite corners until the bell rings to start the round (boxing round, not melee round). And since it's real world, the initiative winner doesn't simply charge across the ring and still catch the other guy flat-fotoed; they both move into the center of the ring simultaneously.
Sure, a boxer with fast hands might flash a jab that tags the jaw of the other guy so fast that he doesn't react in time to block. Happens dozens of times in each fight. But that's not "flat-footed".
On the other hand, I have seen, in boxing and in MMA, a few very rare examples of being caught flat-footed in the ring/cage: At the start of round 1, it's common for the fighters to "touch gloves" before they start to fight. It's a tradition, not a rule, so some guys, usually considered to be displaying poor sportsmanship, might throw a punch while his opponent is reaching out to "touch gloves" - occasionally that one attack seems to surprise the opponent enough that I might say he was "flat-footed".
(of course, you should defend yourself at all times in the ring/cage and should be ready for that unsportsmanlike surprise even when you think you're "touching gloves", and by far, most fighters are ready enough that even those surprise attacks miss - but not always).
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You have to be fairly specific about the "something". So, "Shoot my bow at the closest guy if combat starts", and that's it.
Again, players forget that NPCs and monsters can do the same things the PCs can. So when you say, "I ready an action to shoot my bow at the closest guy if combat starts," the orc across the way is saying, "I'm going to charge that guy with a bow if combat starts."
Who gets to go first? That is why we have initiative. It is also why you can't ready an action outside of combat. Because everyone is ready if they are aware of each other!!!
And flat-footed is showing that you are slower to respond to action than the other person.
But, whatever, run the game however you like. The rules as written are very clear, and very simple. People make it a lot more complicated than it is: awareness + awareness + willingness to fight = initiative. Awareness + obliviousness + willingness to fight = surprise round.
You have to be fairly specific about the "something". So, "Shoot my bow at the closest guy if combat starts", and that's it.Again, players forget that NPCs and monsters can do the same things the PCs can. So when you say, "I ready an action to shoot my bow at the closest guy if combat starts," the orc across the way is saying, "I'm going to charge that guy with a bow if combat starts."
Who gets to go first? That is why we have initiative. It is also why you can't ready an action outside of combat. Because everyone is ready if they are aware of each other!!!
If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll to determine which one of them goes before the other.
And yes, if you are in that situation there is a good chance that your opponents may choose to ready action too. Now the thing about readying an action is that it is itself an action and trying it may start combat itself meaning you would need to roll for initiative before you are able to ready your action.
yeah, which would be nice, standing with your bow drawn, arrow ready all pointing at some guy.
If you spend a feat on Improved Initiative and then find that going first in combat is down to who readied the right action out of combat it gets very annoying. Been there, done that, spent a loooooong time trying to explain it.
Saying, "I expect a fight" doesn't mean that the other guy doesn't expect it more. Even a boxer in a ring can catch the other boxer off guard.
I think the rules do a fine job of adding that feel into the game with the flat-footed rules.
I get your point, but technically, while boxers might catch the other guy "off-guard", they don't catch the other guy flat-footed. No surprise round and the boxers start in opposite corners until the bell rings to start the round (boxing round, not melee round). And since it's real world, the initiative winner doesn't simply charge across the ring and still catch the other guy flat-fotoed; they both move into the center of the ring simultaneously.
Sure, a boxer with fast hands might flash a jab that tags the jaw of the other guy so fast that he doesn't react in time to block. Happens dozens of times in each fight. But that's not "flat-footed".
On the other hand, I have seen, in boxing and in MMA, a few very rare examples of being caught flat-footed in the ring/cage: At the start of round 1, it's common for the fighters to "touch gloves" before they start to fight. It's a tradition, not a rule, so some guys, usually considered to be displaying poor sportsmanship, might throw a punch while his opponent is reaching out to "touch gloves" - occasionally that one attack seems to surprise the opponent enough that I might say he was "flat-footed".
(of course, you should defend yourself at all times in the ring/cage and should be ready for that unsportsmanlike surprise even when you think you're "touching gloves", and by far, most fighters are ready enough that even those surprise attacks miss - but not always).
So you get my point but discount it completely?
My point was that you can't just say, "I'm ready" and not expect EVERY OTHER combatant to be doing the same thing. That is what initiative and the surprise round represent.
If you stack up on a door to breach it, you can still be caught off guard by the people inside. It might take you a split second longer to identify someone as friend or foe, or at least an innocent bystander.
Combat is chaotic. Just because the game presents EVERYTHING from the player's perspectives does not mean that they control all the timing of all things. I think the surprise/initiative rules are an adequate abstraction of the chaos involved.
except like i said, this makes it impossible to brace a bracing weapon against someone behind a door, it shouldn't be flat-footed levels of derp.
You can't just say you are ready. You have to "ready an action". The act of trying to ready an action before combat can itself initiate combat, which would require an initiative roll, which would defeat the purpose of readying that desired action. This is up to the DM.
Your boxer example is really just an example of a Feint. It has nothing to do with Initiative.
Your boxer example is really just an example of a Feint. It has nothing to do with Initiative.
i was going to say this earlier yesterday but didn't want to get into a conversation about boxing.
You can't just prepare for everything because you want too. You can set yourself up for the braced weapon. You just need to do it outside of the enemy's single round of movement. Then you are guaranteed to get it to work. That is setting things up. You don't get to auto brace any more than you get to auto go first. Or auto ready any other action.
It is about rules balance and a simple simulation, not an exact copy of combat.
A feint requires some sort of fake out or diversion. That wasn't my point. I was envisioning the first punch, the one that you don't know the timing of. The one where you are still sizing up your opponent's stance and movements.
I am not a boxer, but those split seconds before a combat (all of mine are sports or training simulations) are the most chaotic and stressful moments of my life. And I respond to 911 calls for a living.
My point was that even people that see the combatant, know it is a fight, and think they are ready for it, sometimes are not.
You can't just prepare for everything because you want too. You can set yourself up for the braced weapon. You just need to do it outside of the enemy's single round of movement. Then you are guaranteed to get it to work. That is setting things up. You don't get to auto brace any more than you get to auto go first. Or auto ready any other action.
It is about rules balance and a simple simulation, not an exact copy of combat.
Ok, think of it this way. Party A and Party B are fighting. Party C comes in. Is party A or B flatfooted to party C? This is the same thing.
A feint requires some sort of fake out or diversion. That wasn't my point. I was envisioning the first punch, the one that you don't know the timing of. The one where you are still sizing up your opponent's stance and movements.I am not a boxer, but those split seconds before a combat (all of mine are sports or training simulations) are the most chaotic and stressful moments of my life. And I respond to 911 calls for a living.
My point was that even people that see the combatant, know it is a fight, and think they are ready for it, sometimes are not.
The thing about those split second moments is that they don't just occur in the first six seconds of a fight. They occur every second of the fight.
You can't just prepare for everything because you want too. You can set yourself up for the braced weapon. You just need to do it outside of the enemy's single round of movement. Then you are guaranteed to get it to work. That is setting things up. You don't get to auto brace any more than you get to auto go first. Or auto ready any other action.
Brace: If you use a readied action to set a brace weapon against a charge, you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging creature
I don't think you understand why bracing doesn't work in your example.
I can't brace against a charge for some reason before initiative is rolled?
I was envisioning the first punch, the one that you don't know the timing of. The one where you are still sizing up your opponent's stance and movements.
this is handled by the attack roll, the enemy is not flat-footed.
I am not a boxer, but those split seconds before a combat (all of mine are sports or training simulations) are the most chaotic and stressful moments of my life. And I respond to 911 calls for a living.My point was that even people that see the combatant, know it is a fight, and think they are ready for it, sometimes are not.
then why does dexterity give a bonus to initiative, what does it have to do with being ready for combat?
Everything has to do with being ready. Your gear. Your hearing. Your sight. Your sense of smell. Your intuition. Your training. Your experience.
But this is a game. And in a game something has to be chosen to affect it. I guess the designers thought dexterity was a good choice.
Everything we are discussing are just ways to envision melding the rules with the thematics. None of it is relevant in real life.
Bracing doesn't work outside of initiative for exact same reason that sneak attack doesn't. The enemy ALSO has a chance to catch you flat-footed. Just because you WANT to be more ready than them, doesn't mean you are. You can't just walk up to a guard and sneak attack them without initiative on the sole idea that you started the fight. It works that way with defense as well.
Maybe they are expecting you on the other side of that door. Maybe their friends, which you killed, should have returned with dinner but haven't yet. Maybe you smell. Maybe they just have a bad feeling. Or maybe they just got extremely lucky.
Unless you map every inch of the battlefield, account for every reflection or shadow, figure out every echo or wind travel, the rules do an OK job of making all of it abstract.
My best suggestion to you is to try to envision the situation that works for you that fits the rules, rather than try to change the rules to fit your vision. I don't say this with any malice, but the initiative works from a game standpoint. Both sides have equal abilities and limited ability to just press the "I WIN!" button.
You can't just prepare for everything because you want too. You can set yourself up for the braced weapon. You just need to do it outside of the enemy's single round of movement. Then you are guaranteed to get it to work. That is setting things up. You don't get to auto brace any more than you get to auto go first. Or auto ready any other action.
It is about rules balance and a simple simulation, not an exact copy of combat.
Ok, think of it this way. Party A and Party B are fighting. Party C comes in. Is party A or B flatfooted to party C? This is the same thing.
The thing about those split second moments is that they don't just occur in the first six seconds of a fight. They occur every second of the fight.
A feint requires some sort of fake out or diversion. That wasn't my point. I was envisioning the first punch, the one that you don't know the timing of. The one where you are still sizing up your opponent's stance and movements.I am not a boxer, but those split seconds before a combat (all of mine are sports or training simulations) are the most chaotic and stressful moments of my life. And I respond to 911 calls for a living.
My point was that even people that see the combatant, know it is a fight, and think they are ready for it, sometimes are not.
In my training/sports experience, nothing is like the first few seconds. After that, a rhythm is formed. Opponents have sized up reach, strength, speed, and general skill level. There are always surprises, but nothing like the first few seconds.
Of course, YMMV. I only meant any of it as personal examples to fit the current rules, not as life lessons on boxing or combat.