Goblin Feral Gnasher Help

[London Duke]

Howdy all, I am trying to figure out my feral gnasher for an upcoming game and I have a couple questions.

1st: Should I dip Unchained Monk for 1 level in order to pick up IUS and Improved Grapple as bonus feats? I know I wouldnt be able to advance in monk after switching my alignment to a more suitable non-Lawful alignment but that 1st level could help move things along.

2nd: Should I go standard barbarian or unchained barbarian?

I may be able to talk my DM into allowing the HP gained as a standard barbarian to count as temp HP.... its worked in the past.

[LoneKnave]

Dip Unchained Monk and get Feral Combat Training for your bite (along with IUS and Grapple). Congrats, you can now flurry with your bite that grapples on every hit!

Do you want to be DEX or STR focused? If DEX focused, go UC barb, if STR focused go normal barb (I think the UC barb is the way to go, considering your stats).

[London Duke]

I would love to just go Dex focused, but the problem is that when you have the grappled condition you take a -4 to Dex. Seems counter-productive.

I was thinking along the lines of:
16/16/14/8/12/5 for my stats

Feats:
1. Roll With It
1b. IUS, Imp.Grapple, Stunning Fist
3. Weapon Focus: Bite
5. Improved Natural Attack (or Deadly Grappler or Power Attack)
7. Greater Grapple
9. Rapid Grappler
11. Body Shield

The biggest negatives I noticed for the UC Barb are that my bite loses the 1 1/2 str boost, the Rage Stance powers requiring a move action, and the fairly major nerfs to the Anti-Magic focused powers.

[LoneKnave]

The problem with an STR based goblin vs DEX is that you have a -2 penalty for it, while you have a +4 for DEX. Even with the DEX penalty, you have a better bonus (+0 instead of -2) than STR based.

However, Feral Combat Training with that bite is quite good with new flurry, so that's one more reason to go STR based. I'd take that instead of Improved natural attack in a heartbeat.

[London Duke]

Thats true about the Dex. Would I be able to finesse my grapple using my bite (which is a finessable weapon and is how I initate the grapple) without paying the Agile Manuvers feat tax?

[LoneKnave]

Good question. I'd say you are definitely using a weapon to do it, and would say weapon finesse applies. I don't know how strict your DM will be though.

[Backlash3906]

Are you using the Medium goblin from Monster Codex? Better stats, bigger damage. (: (If you're using HeroLab, you'll have to apply a size and ability mod change manually to a regular goblin, since it lists the oversized gobbies as a different race)

[London Duke]

Unfortunately I dont have that book. :-(

But I found it in archives of nethys, that's perfect! Not nearly as cute as one of the little guys but so much more effective for a goblin feral gnasher build.

[zza ni]

if i may add a sugjestion.
if your rolling a biting babarian(who i asume has a very high con modifier). get the following as well.just to make it worse:
Draconic Blood, Greater pick acid.
then go for the feat : Noxious bite . which can be a total killer if dc is done right.
btw you can increase the dc more with the feat ability focus (breath weapon) which will work both on the actual breath weapon and the biting extra sting

[London Duke]

Noxious Bite is awesome! The big problem is that Draconic Blood, Lesser grants 2 claws which means our bite goes from 1 1/2 Str to only Str.

[zza ni]

oh noes!!
you get to attack MORE times and your BITE does a litile less damage
..doesnt the claw considered priemry attack = full str to each?
so
1 bite + 1 str + 1/2 or
1 bit + the sting + 1 str + 2 attacks each with full str....
remmber primry attacks don't take -5 to hit unless you also use a weapon

[London Duke]

I would actually end up with less attacks by full attacking (which is nessesary for utilizing the bite and claws) rather than focusing on grappling.

Gobo Hordo, an inhouse goblin feral gnasher expert sums it up pretty well here

Gobo Horde wrote:

Sorry about the confusion, I will try and make my point a little more clear and with less words :P

As for the number of attacks, you actually bite with animal fury 3 times. I will run 3 senarios to demonstrate how this works.

#1) you start apart from your target.
Move action to close to your target, standard to attack 1st bite, free grapple attempt because of grab and animal fury procs 2nd bite, do damage to maintain the grapple 3rd bite, rapid grappler activates granting a second animal fury 4th bite, and finally do damage to maintain the grapple 5th bite.
5 bites off of a standard and a swift action, no pounce.

#2) you already grappled last turn and are currently in the grapple.
move action to maintain the grapple, animal fury procs 1st bite, do damage to maintain the grapple 2nd bite, move action to maintain the grapple, animal fury procs 3rd bite, do damage to maintain the grapple 4th bite, swift action to maintain the grapple, animal fury procs 5th bite, do damage to maintain the grapple 6th bite.
6 bites if you are already inside the grapple.

#3) you are beside the target but not in a grapple.
standard action to attack your target 1st bite, free grapple attempt because of grab, animal fury procs 2nd bite, do damage to maintain the grapple 3rd bite, move action to maintain the grapple, animal fury procs 4th bite, do damage to maintain the grapple 5th bite, swift action to maintain the grapple, animal fury procs 6th bite, do damage to maintain the grapple 7th bite.
7 bites when someone else would full attack, I did not include this one as it should be rare.

[zza ni]

took some time to read it all
..but you do understand you can only do this up to large creatures? anyting bigger can't be grappled.(unless you find a way around that.) or you take the medium goblin sub race. (which will actuly also help you with the str part)

[London Duke]

Well at 9th level it works up to huge (with oversized gobo) and gargantuan at 15. Should be able to cover my bases.

[LoneKnave]

With feral combat training and flurry of blows, at #3 you are better of doing a full attack always, since you can make at least 2 attack bites (ending you with a total of 8, if I'm not mistaken), and even more when you get iteratives.

[London Duke]

So going back to my original question, given that I am somewhat focused on a Str Build, likely with the Oversized Gobo, should I go standard or unchained Barbarian?

And if so, what kind of power progression do you recommend?