How is a Dhampir affected when it comes it Channel Negative Evergy (living or undead)?

[Michael Grate]

There was a discussion here
(http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sdgz?Is-there-any-way-to-give-a-living-creatu re#1)
about dealing with Channel Negative Energy and a mounted Dhampir.

The topic came up on how the Dhampir should be affected by CNE, specifically if the Dhampir would be healed with other undead creatures (counted with undead, healed as if undead) or healed when living creatures are targeted by CNE (counted with living, healed as if undead).

Here is the information on Negative Energy Affinity (the racial trait the Dhampir has):
Though a living creature, a dhampir reacts to positive and negative energy as if it were undead—positive energy harms it, while negative energy heals it.

Any ideas?

[Paul Watson]

Channel Positive to heal living: Ignore Dhampir and undead; Heal living
Channel Positiveto hurt undead: Damage Dhampir and undead; Ignore living
Channel Negative to hurt living: Ignore Dhampir and undead; Damage living
Channel Negative to heal undead: Heal Dhampir and undead; Ignore living

You treat Dhampir as undead rather than living creatures for purposes of postiive and negative energy, including Channel, healing and inflict spells and I'm sure others.

[LuxuriantOak]

Paul Watson wrote:

Channel Positive to heal living: Ignore Dhampir and undead; Heal living

Channel Positiveto hurt undead: Damage Dhampir and undead; Ignore living
Channel Negative to hurt living: Ignore Dhampir and undead; Damage living
Channel Negative to heal undead: Heal Dhampir and undead; Ignore living

You treat Dhampir as undead rather than living creatures for purposes of postiive and negative energy, including Channel, healing and inflict spells and I'm sure others.

what about healing spells and potions?

specifically bard "Cure ..." spells,
and alchemist "Cure ..." extracts with the infusion discovery.

[Paul Watson]

If they use positive energy, they work as positive channel, and apply the same effect as if you cast the spell on an undead creature. What happens when you cast Cure Light on a vampire. Same thing happens to a dhampir.

[Just a Guess]

For channeling/healing the dhampir is treated as undead.

[Jeff Merola]

There's an FAQ that clarifies how this is supposed to work.

[LuxuriantOak]

Thanks for the clarification and links, I have a player that will have to start thinking outside the box now it seems. :)

[Berti Blackfoot]

The dhampir player in my campaign carries around potions of Inflict Light Wounds he uses to heal himself.

I also gave the group a Ring of the Grasping Grave (touch attack to stop an undead from being healed by negative energy) which they are joking they will use on him if he annoys them :)

[Vikingnewt]

oh balls. still if i can persuade leondell to start making inflict potions... pklaying a fallen paladin/magus dhampir is never easy.

but flight + fireball = no more honour required.

[PrinceRaven]

As a general rule, a dhampir is considered living when it comes to targeting requirements but undead for the effects of channelling and cure/inflict spells.

[Belabras]

It only gets funky for the Dhampir when you get into negative energy ability damage and Restoration spells.

[op3rator]

If it becomes too much of an issue, you can have that player do what one of my players did - take the Life Dominant Soul feat.

[Michael Grate]

Berti Blackfoot wrote:

The dhampir player in my campaign carries around potions of Inflict Light Wounds he uses to heal himself.

I also gave the group a Ring of the Grasping Grave (touch attack to stop an undead from being healed by negative energy) which they are joking they will use on him if he annoys them :)

Wait, so even potions would have the opposite effect. I guess that makes sense being that they are basically liquified spells...crap, this is going to be a pain to have to fix then.

[Michael Grate]

Ok, I have a few issue I have to bring to light with my group now.

So, a new question would be about New life scrolls. They act as the spell Breath of Life which says it cannot bring back undead creatures. My issue now is, what would the be the equal and opposite to this if there is any?

Also, if the Dhampri dies (reduced to negative hitpoints below con) can the Channel Negative Energy still affect him? Unlike positive energy which heals the living, Negative energy heals the undead (and I'm assuming dead). So how would this work if it even does?

And finally, if it does works on the Dhampir when he dies, would it work on those who aren't normally undead but die in battle and thus aren't living?

[op3rator]

Michael Grate wrote:

Ok, I have a few issue I have to bring to light with my group now.

So, a new question would be about New life scrolls. They act as the spell Breath of Life which says it cannot bring back undead creatures. My issue now is, what would the be the equal and opposite to this if there is any?

Also, if the Dhampri dies (reduced to negative hitpoints below con) can the Channel Negative Energy still affect him? Unlike positive energy which heals the living, Negative energy heals the undead (and I'm assuming dead). So how would this work if it even does?

And finally, if it does works on the Dhampir when he dies, would it work on those who aren't normally undead but die in battle and thus aren't living?

I can see your concern with the wording of the spell and how it mentions undead specifically. Again, I'd point out the Life Dominant Soul feat, which would eliminate a lot of these concerns for your player.

As Dhampirs are not actually of the Undead subtype, which is what the spell mentions, and Breath of Life does not specify the energy is Positive (although I grant that it is *HEAVILY* implied), there is enough wiggle room to use a little bit of handwavium.

Well, the spell also brings back to life a dead person if they have only been dead for one round, so I'd say yes.

[Jeff Merola]

op3rator wrote:

I can see your concern with the wording of the spell and how it mentions undead specifically. Again, I'd point out the Life Dominant Soul feat, which would eliminate a lot of these concerns for your player.

As Dhampirs are not actually of the Undead subtype, which is what the spell mentions, and Breath of Life does not specify the energy is Positive (although I grant that it is *HEAVILY* implied), there is enough wiggle room to use a little bit of handwavium.

Well, the spell also brings back to life a dead person if they have only been dead for one round, so I'd say yes.

The problem with that is the dhampir's Negative Energy Affinity has been changed to the following:

Quote:

Negative Energy Affinity (Ex) The creature is alive, but is treated as undead for all effects that affect undead differently than living creatures, such as cure spells and channeled energy.

It doesn't matter if the spell mentions positive or negative energy, if it says it does something different to undead, dhampir's use that portion. In this case they are hurt by Breath of Life.

[Michael Grate]

Alright, so any information on the other issues? I'm planning on bringing up this with my team in a few hours but I can't find the answer to those questions.

[Just a Guess]

Dhampirs have drawbacks. Part of playing them is to man up and handle the drawbacks. Life Dominant Soul is a viable way of countering part of the drawbacks. Handwavium is only if it is given to players playing other races with drawbacks, too. Like dwarves with their slow speed. Do you handwave the fleet feat working only in light armor for them?
Some spells just don't work on dhampirs (or work differently) as some spells (the person spells) don't work on tieflings.

[Weirdo]

Yes, but I think the intent of Negative Energy Affinity is to make it harder to heal dhampir, not to make it impossible to raise them from the dead. That's a pretty major and non-obvious drawback.

[Just a Guess]

Weirdo wrote:

Yes, but I think the intent of Negative Energy Affinity is to make it harder to heal dhampir, not to make it impossible to raise them from the dead. That's a pretty major and non-obvious drawback.

The topic so far was about healing and breath of life. Not about raising them. And even if, being so close to undeath is not a healthy state of existance.

[Weirdo]

Only Breath of Life was mentioned but the same logic could be applied to Raise Dead, which has similar language preventing it from being used on undead:

Breath of Life wrote:

Like cure spells, breath of life deals damage to undead creatures rather than curing them, and cannot bring them back to life.

Raise Dead wrote:

A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can't be raised.

Resurrection arguably works if you consider a dhampir to have been "turned into an undead creature and then destroyed":

Resurrection wrote:

You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. You cannot resurrect someone who has died of old age. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can't be resurrected.

...but requiring a 7th level spell and 10,000gp to bring back a dhampir is pretty steep. Heck, even being unable to benefit from Breath of Life is a pretty significant penalty given that it's the only way to bring someone back in combat and without a component cost. Note that native outsiders, unlike other outsiders, can be raised from the dead (possibly in order to prevent native outsider PCs from having these problems).

The con penalty covers the "unhealthiness" of being close to undeath - as do the problems with the most common healing effects.