Runelord Zutha, Ungarato, and the servants of Tar-Baphon.

[Major_Blackhart]

Ok, so Shattered Star gave us the beginnings for an awesome post campaign with Thullos and Zutha rising.

For those who don't know who Thullos is, he's a lich Taiga Giant Necromancer who seeks to bring Zutha back.

Now that we've gotten the leveling for Ungarato, who appears to be supremely powerful, and assuming Thullos is successful in restoring Zutha, how would the scenario play out with regards to the servants of Tar-Baphon? Would the likes of Erum-Hel and his Vampire antipaladin overlord, the kellid, flock to Zutha's banner or would a war between the factions erupt?

Ungarato, being so awesomely powerful would have to make an appearance of course. His essence is locked within the sword that bears his name, so whomever picks it up will have to enter into a battle of wills with the Graveknight and when that battle is inevitably lost you'd see the Dragon-Tamer reborn anew and at full power, similarly to how Ovinrbane works in Kingmaker.

Would the undead in these regions be utterly dominated by Zutha? Would Ungarato willingly return to serve his former master or would he once again abscond with the fabled sword of sin and become a mighty warlord of the Kellid peoples in another realm or even or orcs?

If I recall, the Graveknight was not compelled to follow Zutha, but rather the Runelord bargained with him. Ungarato could simply decide he'd fulfilled his duties and rebuild his old barbarian kingdom.

[Mark Moreland]

While not directly answered, a lot of the questions you're asking are at least addressed in the most recent Pathfinder Tales novel, Lord of Runes.

[Major_Blackhart]

Alright. Off to download that for kindle.

Specifically, which questions did that actually dance around, the servants of the Lich Lord Tar-Baphon or Ungarato?

[Zhangar]

Ungarato and Zutha were apparently best buds, to the extent that's possible for a graveknight and a lich - Zutha actually entrusted part of his phylactery to Ungarato.

Trusting a phylactery to anyone isn't a thing liches normally do.

(And you're correct; Ungarato was never a mere minion of Zutha; he'd attained undeath with the aid of his artifact sword, and began his career under Zutha as Zutha's top general and champion.)

I'd expect Ungarato's first goal to be bringing back Zutha, because undead buddies help bring each other's millennia long plans for conquest and eternal domination to fruition.

[Major_Blackhart]

Hmm, part of me wonders, as Ungarato was insanely powerful due to being mythic, whether or not Zutha himself had some mythic power as well. Supposedly not, because he's beneath Karzoug in power according to word of god, but part of me seems to believe that Runelords abhor the idea of having servants that are more powerful to them in some fashion.
If that's not the case here, then Zutha himself must be incredibly pragmatic in that regard.

[Cpt_kirstov]

Major_Blackhart wrote:

Alright. Off to download that for kindle.

Specifically, which questions did that actually dance around, the servants of the Lich Lord Tar-Baphon or Ungarato?

the taiga giant is brought up as are the servants and a lot of information on Zutha

[Deadmanwalking]

Major_Blackhart wrote:

Hmm, part of me wonders, as Ungarato was insanely powerful due to being mythic, whether or not Zutha himself had some mythic power as well. Supposedly not, because he's beneath Karzoug in power according to word of god, but part of me seems to believe that Runelords abhor the idea of having servants that are more powerful to them in some fashion.

Eh...he could be a CR 20 as a 17th level Wizard with the Lich Template and 2-3 Mythic Tiers. That's still below Karzoug in power. And even by about the margin you'd expect.

[Zhangar]

We'd expect Zutha to have the +2 CR from being an Azlanti with greater point buy (20 or 25) and having fantastic wealth/gear, though.

I believe Mr. Jacobs has advised that Zutha himself isn't mythic.

So his having mythic allies would be interesting - Zutha was apparently amazing at inspiring loyalty.

[Major_Blackhart]

That's kind of it, isn't it? Zutha seems to obviously been the Lord but one must wonder if Ungarato was simply grateful for the Necromancer offing Goparlis or maybe there was greater promises of power and a place in Gastash for his own people. But whatever it was, Ungarato was made loyal to the Runelord.

Maybe their views on life and the world itself were just very similar.

Edit: part of me wonders if either of them had contact at any point with Erum-Hel, though it's unlikely that the Lord of Morghs was as powerful as he is now.

[Deadmanwalking]

Zhangar wrote:

We'd expect Zutha to have the +2 CR from being an Azlanti with greater point buy (20 or 25) and having fantastic wealth/gear, though.

Probably, though I was actually taking high stats into account. Which means you only need something that reduces his CR by 1 to fit in some Mythic Tiers.

[Major_Blackhart]

Hmmm. Karzoug was labeled as Azlanti but he didn't have any of those Stat bonuses that Sorshen had. I suspect that those bonuses to all stats were specific to the men and women from Azlant itself, not necessarily Azlant heritage.

[Zhangar]

@ Deadmanwalking - I suppose. I do feel that "underequipped" should never, ever, be an adjective attached to "Runelord," though.

@ Major_Blackhart - Again, I think Ungarato and Zutha were actually friends, in addition to the Runelord and Champion relationship.

Nothing prevents one's lord from also being one's best friend. (Indeed, in the Chinese literary classics like Romance of the Three Kingdoms it's fairly common.)

Now, speculation - Ungarato's mythic? Perhaps Zutha's the actual source of that - much like how Tar-Baphon attained mythic power by studying at Zutha's Cenotaph.

Perhaps Zutha figured out a way to become a font/source of mythic power, but was unable to harness it for himself?

(Sort of like how Treerazer and many other quasi/demi-dieties can grant miracle but can't cast it?)

And so there'd be very, very few people he'd trust enough to grant such power to, because they'd potentially be stronger than him. Ungarato - the graveknight he could trust with his freaking phylactery - would be such a person, though.

While that would certainly by odd, the Runelords did a LOT of really weird stuff...

[Zhangar]

Major_Blackhart wrote:

Hmmm. Karzoug was labeled as Azlanti but he didn't have any of those Stat bonuses that Sorshen had. I suspect that those bonuses to all stats were specific to the men and women from Azlant itself, not necessarily Azlant heritage.

? Karzoug's stat block factors in his +2 to all stats from being Azlanti, +3 to all mental stats for being over 400 years old, and a massive pile of inherent and enhancement bonuses.

[archmagi1]

The real question, though, is how well will Zutha fare against TB's army he has camped in the Cenotaph if he were awakened? Does Zutha have enough of a CHA to beat TB's unlimited control of undead on the same plane? Does TB just have mindless hordes inside the Cenotaph, or are some of his demilich, vampire lord, and ghast generals there as well planning their assault on Northern Avistan?

EDIT: Mythic Realms says no to generals, but yes to mythic undead there waiting. p.7

[Zhangar]

Zutha would be in trouble if TB was actually out and active, but Zutha wakes up while TB's still sealed?

The squatters may be getting forced off his lawn or bowing down. (Or may already be Zutha's servants! And now I'm starting to favor that "Zutha made himself a font of power he couldn't directly use" theory.)

I'd fully expect Zutha to have custom spells to augment his own control over the undead. There's also the matter of what else would wake up along with Zutha.

Though worst possible outcome might be something like: Tar-Baphon did not commune with the Cenotaph; he actually communed with Zutha, and like others before, pledged his assistance to the Runelord in exchange for knowledge and guidance on how to become mythic and attain mastery. And so certain pacts had been made, and Tar-Baphon had been looking into a way to bring Zutha back when TB got sealed. Zutha, upon awakening and finding his final and greatest disciple sealed away, may well set out on personally destroying the Grand Seal on Gallowspire, and setting his kindred spirit free - so that the combined powers of Thassilon and the Whispering Tyrant may subjugate the world.

(Note: I have not read Lord of Runes at all, and have no idea if Zutha and TB would be rivals or not =P)

[archmagi1]

The only problem with that is that TB is Max CR for a non-divine entity. Zutha has previously been mentioned as a middling power level Runelord, not someone beefy enough to consider one of the most powerful mortal creatures on Golarion as a Disciple. Mythic Realms p6 also implies that Zutha was superseded by the arisen Whispering Tyrant.

Mythic Realms wrote:

The Cenotaph’s creator was none other than Zutha, the terrible Runelord of Gluttony, master of the Thassilonian realm of Gastash and the greatest necromancer to grace Golarion’s surface until Tar-Baphon himself.

And later

Mythic Realms wrote:

The Whispering Tyrant was perhaps the greatest threat that the people of the Inner Sea have ever known.

That just doesn't read to me like TB would be paying fealty to Zutha.

[Zhangar]

TB wasn't mythic until after he gained knowledge from the Cenotaph.

Zutha might be why Tar-Barphon became mythic in the first place. Zutha may have taught him how to both become a lich and how to become mythic in the process - knowledge that came too late to Zutha for it to benefit him, but nevertheless something he could share.

(And Zutha having allies stronger than himself may have been an ongoing thing, based on his mythic graveknight buddy.)

And "middling power level Runelord" sort of understates how dangerous he still was - the weakest Runelord of them all was still CR 18 (CR 16 for L17 wizard, +2 CR for being a Runelord). As a L17 Runelord Lich, Zutha would clock in at CR 20.

Zutha by no means is weak. Zutha's at the right spot to make a good final boss for a AP, actually.

And no, Tar-Baphon would not serve Zutha any more than Zutha would serve him; they're both kings after all. I'd expect them to be staunch allies instead. Zutha's ambitions don't lie towards conquest (IIRC, he was the only Runelord to never fight a war with his neighbors), but rather running his entire nation as a giant magic lab. Once his "lab" was big enough, he'd be set.

A restored Zutha would pick up right where he left off, and would probably vastly prefer Tar-Baphon as a neighbor over any of his old Runelord colleagues.

[Major_Blackhart]

Definitely not. Tar-Baphon is far too powerful and too arrogant for that.

I think a Zutha arisen would definitely set out to conquer Belkzen first and foremost. Hell, other kingdoms might welcome him as a stabilizing g force in the region, both him and his champion Ungarato. He might even dispatch Ungarato to conquer the kellid lands and expand their influence throughtout. Zutha was a rather mercantile Runelord afterall. I see him expanding his kingdom at first until he feels it large enough and he is limited by logistics and what lays on his borders. I don't see him going into Last wall or Ustalav right away.

[Zhangar]

Major_Blackhart wrote:

Definitely not. Tar-Baphon is far too powerful and too arrogant for that.

I think a Zutha arisen would definitely set out to conquer Belkzen first and foremost. Hell, other kingdoms might welcome him as a stabilizing g force in the region, both him and his champion Ungarato. He might even dispatch Ungarato to conquer the kellid lands and expand their influence throughtout. Zutha was a rather mercantile Runelord afterall. I see him expanding his kingdom at first until he feels it large enough and he is limited by logistics and what lays on his borders. I don't see him going into Last wall or Ustalav right away.

Thinking about it though - Belkzen's kind of a hole - a wasteland full of orcs and monsters.

Zutha's a horrifying hedonist, and Belkzen's not a fertile breadbasket anymore. It may no longer be satisfactory.

And now I'm wondering if an active Zutha could outright move the Cenotaph if he wanted to...

The Magnimar or Korvosa environs could be more to his liking. (Granted, Lorthact's presence means he has a nasty surprise waiting for him in Korvosa, but it's not actually possible for him to know about that because Lorthact. Anyways, Zutha'd be more interested in making sure Sorshen never wakes up if he's trying to claim her unspoiled lands.)

Edit: Another random thought - If Zutha's stuck with Belkzen, would he go to war with the orcs? Or would he just hire them? He's an affable sort of evil, after all, and Warlord Grask could be amenable...

[Rogar Valertis]

From what I've read about Zutha and Tar Baphon it seems to me the latter was way more powerful than the former. Yes, Zutha was a runelord (but not one of the really powerful ones, the original disciples of Xin), unliker TB Zutha wasn't mythic, and more importantly Zutha doesn't strike me as someone who could plan and execute a trap for a real god and almost suceed, getting himself a lichdom in the process (Xanathos gambit at the island of terror).

To me Tar Baphon has been represented as THE BBEG of the whole Golarion campaign, while Zutha has been introduced as one of the weakest runelords. So, unless things change in the metaplot, to me Zutha was just a stepping stone for TB to climb over in order to achieve his godlike power.

[archmagi1]

Here's a thought. The Whispering Way. Could it have been evolved from some of the ruins of Zutha's kingdom? PFwiki has it "dating back to the Age of Darkness", could the unlife of the Runelord have inspired those who "survived" earthfall to begin a devotion to undeath?

Perhaps Zutha himself founded the Way, before Earthfall, and was the first of the lore keepers who whispered the basic tenets of the Way to his followers before he went to sleep. What if TB's unique journey to lichdom included hearing the whispers of Zutha in person, and that was just one more *notch* in his belt to help convert those Tiers of Archmage into Ranks of Mythic Lich when he got Godsmacked.

[Major_Blackhart]

I definitely think Zutha would be amenable to hiring out the Empty Hand tribe, offering Grask Uldeth immortality in the process through becoming a graveknight possibly. That's something Grask would jump at simply to ensure all his effort and hard work making the empty hand what it is doesn't go to waste. I'd definitely see the Orc warlord becoming a major partner for Zutha and Ungarato, as someone to keep the Orcs in line and act as a liason for the rest of Belkzen.

He could even use the subjugation of the Empty Hand as proof to the rest of the inner sea region that he is a stabilizing force in a region of danger and instability. At the same time, it's likely Lastwall wouldn't see a difference between him and Tar-Baphon so they might just try to wage war just because.

They'd lose of course, and Zutha would absorb their lands into his own as punishment I'd imagine.

[Generic Villain]

Major_Blackhart wrote:

Hmm, part of me wonders, as Ungarato was insanely powerful due to being mythic, whether or not Zutha himself had some mythic power as well. Supposedly not, because he's beneath Karzoug in power according to word of god, but part of me seems to believe that Runelords abhor the idea of having servants that are more powerful to them in some fashion.

If that's not the case here, then Zutha himself must be incredibly pragmatic in that regard.

To add to Deadmanwalking's post above, I believe James Jacobs mentioned that Zutha and Belimarius (the two Runelords weaker than Karzoug) could, in theory, have some mythic power. For example: Zutha could be an Azlanti lich necromancer 17/tier 2 archmage, and still technically be weaker than Karzoug. (His CR would be 20 - 16 for class levels, 1 for mythic tiers, 2 for lich, and 1 for Azlanti stats and PC-grade equipment).

I don't have the specific post on hand so I may be misquoting, but even if I am, the math holds up. That said! The consensus seems to be that only Xanderghul and Sorshen had mythic tiers.

More likely, Zutha is a CR 20 lich. That would make him an 18th-level necromancer with a +1 to CR for having Azlanti stats and PC-quality gear. Interestingly, that would make him weaker than both Thullos and Ungarato.

So how could Ungarato be stronger than Zutha? Consider the possibility, which is absolutely hinted at in the recent graveknight article, that Ungarato is still "alive." If that's the case, he's been kicking around for ten thousand years - more than enough time to gain considerable power.

archmagi1 wrote:

Here's a thought. The Whispering Way. Could it have been evolved from some of the ruins of Zutha's kingdom?

Consider this: there is a temple of the Whispering Way on the undead-infested planet of Eox, called the Church of Silence. Although there's no indication when it was built, it is noted that "...the path of perfection through undeath was followed long before that mortal [Tar-Baphon] took his first breath."

This suggests to me that the Whispering Way doesn't have a singular founder, like Diabolism. It has existed since mortals first learned they could achieve immortality of a sort via undead, and is followed in some form or another on many different worlds.

*EDIT: Just thought of something. There is an Eoxian lich in the adventure Asylum Stone; or rather, the simulacrum of an Eoxian lich. The original (Maligast) was an ally of Karzoug. That tells us that Eox's mass lichification occurred at least prior to Thassilon's downfall, which would again suggest that the Whispering Way preceded Zutha. Or heck, maybe even that the Whispering Way began on Eox and was spread to Golarion via these ancient interactions.

[gustavo iglesias]

I was planning to rise zutha as psrt og my Shattered Chain of The Runelords mash-up campaign. But considering that Thulle is CR24, I feel i that reducing his CR after achieving his goals would be pretty anticlimatic. Also, Ungarato himself is stronger than Zutha too. It feels weird :/