Leadership & Monster Cohorts

[MiggidyMack]

I'm playing in a game where it is reasonable for our characters to pick up Leadership. Not all of us are going to take it, and I might not, but I'm considering it on my Oracle of Bones (it's an evil campaign). I don't have the "Raise the Dead" as a revelation, but I do animate undead. So far, however, I don't use them in combat so much as to carry my palanquin or walk blindly into areas I think are trapped. It's a lot of fun.

So my query, is about Monster Cohorts. I'm looking at a Skeletal Champion, who is a level 1 warrior with a total of 3HD. However, he counts as a level 6 Cohort. Comparing that to a standard companion, who would be a level 6 Fighter (or other player class) and it just doesn't seem to stack up.

Am I missing something about the Monster Cohort rules? I feel like I must be misreading them, or maybe a 3HD Skeletal Champion is awesome in a way that makes up for his +7 to hit and 17 HP.

Thanks in advance for the advice/wisdom!

[marcryser]

Monsters or non-standard races rarely hold up to PC races/classes. The monster has to use some of its level equivalents just to be the monster in the first place. I ran a monster game where we had everything from a half-dragon kobold sorcerer to a half-orc cleric. The full character classes were vastly superior to a weaker race + template or a stronger race - class levels.

[MiggidyMack]

Which is where my confusion comes from. Or am I misreading the rules for monstrous cohorts. I just can't bring myself to take a cohort with 17 HP at level 8. Even if he is just carrying my stuff he's going to die to the first fireball that clips him.

It's made all the more strange when I look at the new Cohorts and Companions book. It values undead at 6ish lvl for 2HD undead. However you can get Archons and Inevitables at 4th lvl for 2 or 3 HD. And those guys have spell like abilities... and truespeak!

That makes them pretty useful all around, and at level 8 I'd still get to toss a couple class levels on them.

[Bill Dunn]

MiggidyMack wrote:

Am I missing something about the Monster Cohort rules? I feel like I must be misreading them, or maybe a 3HD Skeletal Champion is awesome in a way that makes up for his +7 to hit and 17 HP.

That Skeletal Champion, having DR and undead traits, has defenses up the wazoo compared to your typical humanoid with levels. And those defensive abilities add a lot to the creature's value on the PC-side of things since they will be used fairly often compared to when the creature is encountered (and usually killed) by the PCs.

[MiggidyMack]

It has DR 5 Bludgeoning (which a lot of weapons deal). Which means it can take a 22HP direct weapon hit before it dies (as it is killed at 0hp, without a Con). It has nothing that would protect it from spells.

There's not a lot of things it can survive even a single hit from at level 8 (which is when you can first take it). Compared to 6 levels of a humanoid I don't think it really has defenses up the wazoo. Especially when compared to the class levels it would have, or when compared to Archon's and Ineveitables which only count as a level 4.

Maybe I need to re-read the undead traits. Sure they are immune to a lot of the control and slow death mechanics, but most damage that comes their way one-shots them.

I don't expect them to be a powerhouse in combat, but I'd like them to be able to carry my bag without dying twice a night.

[marcryser]

MiggidyMack wrote:

Am I misreading the rules for monstrous cohorts? I just can't bring myself to take a cohort with 17 HP at level 8.

You're not misreading them. Some are more powerful than others but you will almost always be better off taking a PC race with PC classes. Your 8th level cohort could be an 8th level cleric instead of an undead valet.

[MiggidyMack]

I've talked to my GM, we're going to test it out. I'm gonna run the Skeletal Champion until it dies, then replace him with a more mundane henchman-style character if he dies (without taking the dead companion penalty).

We figure the best way to know is to try it, maybe we are missing something, or expecting hits to be bigger than they are in actuality.

[Bigger Club]

The rules regardng the monsterous cohorts are horrible. What I would suggest using instead is CR+1 or +2= normal cohorts level. So if you could get level 6 cohort normally(you are cha based caster so likely you will hit the cap of your level-2) you could get CR 4 or 5 monster. Now this comes with the caveat that GM should approve anything as CR is not a straight indicator but this is a lot better than the actual rules.

So talk to your GM about the possibility. Also if they are open to 3.5e material there exists undead leadership wich would be pretty perfect for this character.(+2 leadership score for undead creatures and -4 for living)

The said feat is in libris mortis: book of the dead.(google will probably find it too but not sure about the legality of those sites so not linking any.)

[Samasboy1]

You could see if your DM will let you SC cohort have the Bloody Skeleton template.

Would improve his survivability greatly.

[MiggidyMack]

For those keeping score, here's what happened using him today. 2 encounters so far, we're taking a little break at the moment.

Encounter 1: He survived. The opposing party had a Cleric, however, So I was very careful to keep him outside Channel Energy range, just in case. I don't think the Cleric would have wasted an action to kill him, but she did have Quick Channel, and as a level 9 Cleric (with a few minions, found out stats after the fight) I didn't want to risk it. He got to fight a level 4 warrior for a few rounds, his high AC (I have him in Full Plate) kept him alive pretty well, as did the Bludgeoning DR. He didn't HIT the enemy, but he did stand toe-to-toe with him for a few rounds.

Encounter 2: He died. CR 6 Ceustedaemon caught him in his breath weapon after rolling well on initiative. I suppose if I'd rolled better on initiative we could have spread out better, but he caught 2 PC's and the SC in one blast.

So, I suppose that's that. Oh, we are only 7, he let me take the SC a level early.

[Devilkiller]

It seems like a shame that you can probably create more powerful undead servants with Animate Dead than you can get from the feat. Maybe monstrous cohorts are better later on when they can afford more class levels to help them survive long enough for their supposed advantages to come into play.