With the unchained rogue finally making rogue-ing decent I took a closer look at stealth and sneak attack rules and came across this question:
Can a rogue with cover use a move action to hide (stealth check) and use a ranged sneak attack in the same round? Can he do so multiple rounds in succession?
This is assuming the rogue doesn't care that his foes know where he is, so he doesn't need to use the sniping rules to remain hidden, just become "invisible"* before the attack so he can get his sneak damage in.
*I'm treating stealth as invisibility, despite RAW stating it's only total concealment which wouldn't deny Dex to AC for the target.
You're looking at the sniping rules, that's pretty much what you have to do.
Or are you suggesting moving between cover/concealment and resuming stealth each time?
Because the problem you run into is being unobserved.
If you finish your turn by attacking it breaks stealth.
If you shoot first and then move (presumably out of cover/concealment) then you aren't unobserved and can't use stealth without a bluff check to distract them. Otherwise, they saw you run behind the other tree and aren't surprised when you attack from there (i.e. no sneak attack).
Also, keep in mind sneak attack is normally limited to 30ft range. Which is pretty awful. You can get items to mitigate it, but it's not worth building around in my opinion.
I'm aware of the abysmal range. But it can be dealt with and is not part of the question.
Basically, what I want to do is staying in Cover - preferably without moving from my square -, using Stealth FIRST (as a move action), THEN shoot an arrow at my target. Same thing next round. Just assume the foes doesn't want or can't get any closer (becaus of tarrain, being engangled or whatever).
To clarify: I don't care if the enemy can see me during his turn. I'd start a new stealth every round and fire a shot. I THINK that should work, but I'm not sure. Hence the question.
Related topic: What ever happened to the Stealth Playtest blog? The rules were a big improvement but it doesn't look like they were ever made official. Was it deemed unsuccessful? Was it forgotten?
Absolutely not.
If you shoot, you break stealth. Period.
You would have to fire your arrow first, and then move. Or use sniping rules.
You basically sound like your trying to snipe, but don't want to take the -20 penalty.
Otherwise, using stealth first and then firing the arrow breaks your stealth and your not hidden when it's everyone else's turn.
In order for what you want to do to work you would need to:
1) fire your arrow
2) move
3) make a bluff check (assuming anyone can see you, distance penalties apply to perception checks so they may not notice even if your not using stealth but unlikely)
4) use stealth to hide behind another piece of cover/concealment
Otherwise you fire an arrow at the enemy, and they're like "Hey, something just shot an arrow at us from that direction behind that tree." They're not going to be surprised next round when it happens again.
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you.
They stealth blog is probably around somewhere, but they updated the stealth rules using the discussion from the blog. Though, it's not as detailed because the stealth entry had to maintain the same approximate length to fit in the rest of the core rule book without moving things around.
Yeah, I know I break stealth. But what's keeping me from just re-stealthing at the start of my next turn as long as I stay in cover? Do I need to get into new cover? If yes, would a 5-foot-step into another cover square suffice?
I think Sniping doesn't apply as it refers to staying completely undetected. But I don't care if I'm detected. I just want to re-stealth on my next turn.
I'd start a new stealth every round and fire a shot.
As claxon pointed out, you cant stealth while being observed, unless you have hide in plain sight, roll a bluff check (either standard or move action), or has a similar ability. So your plan wouldnt work on round 2 and on.
If you do have such ability, then it will work just fine.Simply declaring "im stealthing as a move action" doesn't work if you just attacked your target on the previous round, you had to stealth after the attack was made. Which is when the sniping rules come on. You can roll a stealth check just after an attack, but it has a -20 stealth penalty because the enemy will look towards where the attack came from. With the proper abilities, you can reduce that penalty to only -10.
When the target is seeing you out in the open during his own turn, it will not do to just duck behind a bush, pop up again and shoot unseen when your turn is up. Unless of course you have a power that says you can do just that.
On the other hand, it's obvious that there's going to be some time in the future when you will be able to sneak upon the same target again. He'll have forgotten about you a week later. But how soon do the rules allow you to sneak up on the same target again, using nothing more than just the stealth skill, and what do you need to do for it? That's seems to be question not explicitly answered in the stealth rules.
I'd say, to make a target lose track of you, you need to go into full cover/total concealment on one turn and start the next turn unobserved and staying unobserved while travelling a non-trivial distance. Probably making stealth checks on the way. You need to be somewhere else entirely, or your head popping up will not surprise someone again mere seconds later.
Ok, I kinda assumed I could be hidden (to deny Dex) even when the enemy knows where (in which square) I am. Somewhat like you can be invisible or have concealment even against foes that know where you are via tremorsense or simiar means.
Thanks you for clearing that up. Now I kinda now why so few players try to do something meaningful with stealth. It just doesn't work once combat startet. Not without a whole bunch of extra abilities or multiclassing, anyway.
I am in the camp that cover or concealment is what gives you the ability to break "observation" and become "stealthed".
There is no way, normally, to keep from being observed. Hearing goes around cover and through walls. It is my belief that, "finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth" is enough.
If you have cover or concealment at the beginning of the round and you use it to hide, I am fine with that.
IMHO, there is a huge difference between being "in stealth" and a target not knowing you are there.
Just being is stealth is like when a person knows you are there but they cannot see you. They know you are hiding behind the tree and that you are going to pop out and shoot an arrow at them. They just don't know when or from which side. Therefore it takes longer for them to react. As such, you can gain the benefits of them being flat-footed and sneak attack damage. The target is well within their rights to walk up to you and smack you, shoot a fireball, or take cover of their own.
Not knowing you are there is more like sniping. Something just hit you and you have no idea where it came from. You look down and an arrow is in your gut. You look around frantically but you don't have any idea where it came from. A few seconds later, another one is sticking out of you. You had better move since you have no clue where your attacker is. That is what it is like when your location is not known at all.
But of course, your mileage may vary.