I'm curious whether pairing these three elements is a viable combo.
While raging, as a free action the barbarian may leave herself open to attack while preparing devastating counterattacks. Enemies gain a +4 bonus on attack and damage rolls against the barbarian until the beginning of her next turn, but every attack against the barbarian provokes an attack of opportunity from her, which is resolved prior to resolving each enemy attack.
While using the Snake Style feat, when an opponent’s attack misses you, you can make an unarmed strike against that opponent as an attack of opportunity. If this attack of opportunity hits, you can spend an immediate action to make another unarmed strike against the same opponent.
Now assuming you're raging and have already spent a free action on your turn to activate the Come and Get Me rage power and an opponent indeed attempts an attack against you:
1. the attempt to strike you provokes an AoO from you.
2. you roll your AoO and either hit or miss.
3. the opponent then rolls his attack roll and misses you.
4. having missed his attack provokes another AoO.
5. you roll another AoO and hit with an unarmed strike.
6. you expend an immediate action to make another unarmed strike.
Result, three attacks to your opponent's one. If your opponent is foolish enough to continue and attacks you a second time during his turn, you immediately repeat steps 1–5; skipping step 6 because you've already expended your next round's swift action; that is as long as you still have AoS left from your Combat Reflexes feat.
Is this correct?
I would consider the attack to be the "opportunity" and so the two abilities would not stack since you can only take one AoO per opportunity.
Lab_Rat, they are not the same opportunity. They use different criteria. The Greater Trip/Vicious Stomp FAQ effectively shows that two AoO triggering acts can be similar but if they are different they still work.
In this case the AoO triggers are different. Attacking and then Missing an Attack. This is just like casting a Ray spell provokes twice (once for the casting and once for the ray) even though it is the same action.
Summary: This is not the same AoO opportunity and what Ambrus is proposing should work.
yep, this is why CaGM is so brutal.
...you're assuming the attacker will miss the raging Barbarian... I mean, it *can* happen...
How about Come and Get Me vs Parry and Riposte?
A swashbuckler attempts an attack, the Barb reacts with an AoO, gets blocked and stabbed at generating another AoO from the Barbarian which is parried, then riposte'd which generates another AoO... ad nauseum until the Swashbuckler runs out of panache...
Lab_Rat, they are not the same opportunity. They use different criteria. The Greater Trip/Vicious Stomp FAQ effectively shows that two AoO triggering acts can be similar but if they are different they still work.
Fair enough
...you're assuming the attacker will miss the raging Barbarian... I mean, it *can* happen...
I think my PFS lvl 12 CaGM Barb has an AC of 8 when going full out. You would have to roll a 1 or miss on the last iterative of a full attack for me to get any benefit.
I get more out of the Come and Get Me + Dazing Assualt combo. Having to make a DC 22 Fort save or be dazed after every hit is pretty brutal.
...you're assuming the attacker will miss the raging Barbarian... I mean, it *can* happen...
How about Come and Get Me vs Parry and Riposte?
A swashbuckler attempts an attack, the Barb reacts with an AoO, gets blocked and stabbed at generating another AoO from the Barbarian which is parried, then riposte'd which generates another AoO... ad nauseum until the Swashbuckler runs out of panache...
Riposting costs an immediate action, so you can't do more than one of those.
...you're assuming the attacker will miss the raging Barbarian... I mean, it *can* happen...I think my PFS lvl 12 CaGM Barb has an AC of 8 when going full out. You would have to roll a 1 or miss on the last iterative of a full attack for me to get any benefit.
I get more out of the Come and Get Me + Dazing Assualt combo. Having to make a DC 22 Fort save or be dazed after every hit is pretty brutal.
....how?
A 'typical' barbarian has beast totem, right? That gives natural armor that scales at the exact same rate as reckless abandon (another typical choice for barbarians, which essentially cancels out power attack's penalty and puts it on AC instead). Overall, the balance should be 0 there.
So the only penalty I can think of is the typical -2 while raging. But to get 8 AC, you need no armor and 10 dex. But you would at least grab dex since you need it for combat reflexes, and at level 12 I do not think a mithral breastplate is hard to grab (and lets not forget basic enhancement on that). I cannot think of a reason why a barbarian would have entirely abysmal AC. Sure, not great (they are 2 handers focused on damage), but not abysmal.
And this all ignores the fact that you can skip normal AC entirely with snake style, allowing you to use sense motive (a wis skill, allowed in rage, by the way) for AC instead. Just do that and maybe grab skill focus means you have fairly good AC.
Snake style uses an immediate action to use that skill for AC. So you can use it for one attack and only one attack.
And this all ignores the fact that you can skip normal AC entirely with snake style, allowing you to use sense motive (a wis skill, allowed in rage, by the way) for AC instead. Just do that and maybe grab skill focus means you have fairly good AC.
Ah, yes, and that is the same action you use to get the second unarmed strike via snake fang, isn't it?
Quiet troublesome.
Still, it is worth considering, at least against the highest BAB attack. Some people complain about AC being useless and write it off completely, but I would only write it off against the first attack at higher levels- against the BAB-5, -10, and -15 attacks, it seems rather useful.
...you're assuming the attacker will miss the raging Barbarian... I mean, it *can* happen...I think my PFS lvl 12 CaGM Barb has an AC of 8 when going full out. You would have to roll a 1 or miss on the last iterative of a full attack for me to get any benefit.
I get more out of the Come and Get Me + Dazing Assualt combo. Having to make a DC 22 Fort save or be dazed after every hit is pretty brutal.
....how?
A 'typical' barbarian has beast totem, right? That gives natural armor that scales at the exact same rate as reckless abandon (another typical choice for barbarians, which essentially cancels out power attack's penalty and puts it on AC instead). Overall, the balance should be 0 there.
So the only penalty I can think of is the typical -2 while raging. But to get 8 AC, you need no armor and 10 dex. But you would at least grab dex since you need it for combat reflexes, and at level 12 I do not think a mithral breastplate is hard to grab (and lets not forget basic enhancement on that). I cannot think of a reason why a barbarian would have entirely abysmal AC. Sure, not great (they are 2 handers focused on damage), but not abysmal.
And this all ignores the fact that you can skip normal AC entirely with snake style, allowing you to use sense motive (a wis skill, allowed in rage, by the way) for AC instead. Just do that and maybe grab skill focus means you have fairly good AC.
It might be a little higher. You're making me do math now and think rather than just spitting out a number that's in the ballpark. @ work with no character sheet so its from memory. 10 + 7(+1 agile mithril breastplate) + 4(18 Dex) - 2(raging) - 2(charging) - 4(the AC equivalent for CaGM) = AC13
EDIT: @ AC13 it still means that an CR12 monster will always hit me on anything better than a nat 1. A lvl 12 fighter from the NPC codex will hit me on anything better than a nat 1 during the first and second iterative and only has to roll a 4 or better on the last.
EDIT 2: CaGM barbarians with pounce sacrifice so much AC that it makes no sense to invest a lot in it. It would cost way too much.
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Snake style uses an immediate action to use that skill for AC. So you can use it for one attack and only one attack.
And this all ignores the fact that you can sekip normal AC entirely with snake style, allowing you to use sense motive (a wis skill, allowed in rage, by the way) for AC instead. Just do that and maybe grab skill focus means you have fairly good AC.Ah, yes, and that is the same action you use to get the second unarmed strike via snake fang, isn't it?
Quiet troublesome.
Well, if you use the immediate action defensively you still get two attacks out of three, and if the attack hits you get just the one attack, so it may be worth it.
Note though that since CAGM applies a +4 bonus to the opponent's attack rather than -4 AC it still helps the opponent hit you when using Snake Style.
Another option is to go for miss chances, though that's easier with a primalist bloodrager than a barbarian.
Cloak of displacement is a nice addition for a miss chance especially if you took superstition to bump saves.