CR Adjustment for a Naked Party?


Advice


Yes. I'm serious.

From my understanding, the CR listing of a creature assumes a party of a 4-5 characters with gear that's standard for their level. But what if the party has been stripped of all of their armor and magical equipment , and is fighting with mundane weapons? Obviously, there should be a CR adjustment in place, but I'm curious about how much I should adjust for? The APL in this situation is 5, if that helps.


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Well if they had NPC level gear it would be APL-1. There is no rule for no gear at all, but I'd go with APL-2, seems about right. However that said if there is litterally nothing for the martials to use as weapons (and they don't have imp unarmed strike) or if the casters cant prepare/don't have spells, then I'd say APL-3 or even -4 depending on the party. However if there are some clubs that can be looted, and the wizard starts with a full compliment of spells (and doesn't have an arcane bonded object, the penalties for having lost it are huge at lower levels), then in that case APL-2 would be what I'd use.


Thanks. APL-2 was what I was already using, but I thought I'd ask around to get a second opinion about the adjustment.


It depends on the classes involved. A typical weapon fighter without any gear is basically half his normal CR. A monk's CR is barely affected, and a -2 may even be going a bit too far. A sorcerer's CR is pretty much untouched, and might not even need to be adjusted a single point.

Handle the partymembers individually.

EDIT: Oh, sorry, I didn't see that the party gets basic weapons. Yeah, the fighter's CR is probably around -3 or -4, in that case.


There's no real hard and fast rule, since a lot's going to depend on the monster in question and the party. A sorcerer can still sling all their spells without a single piece of equipment and the druid can still cast spells and turn into a bear, while an archer fighter who's reduced to punching with his bare hands won't be contributing much at all.

By the same token, some monsters are much more dangerous to a naked party, while others are relatively unchanged. The CR 5 Wraith is flies and is outright immune to any non-magical attacks, both obvious problem for a party with no magic. Meanwhile, the equally CR 5 Dire Lion doesn't present any special challenge to a magic-less party beyond hitting the PCs a bit more easily and being a bit harder to hit in return.

Sovereign Court

Casters: apl - 3
Martials: apl - 7

Grand Lodge

I will echo the "depends on party" sentiment.

Martials are affected by this a lot more then casters. Most martials are dependant on their weapons to do anything, in other words, the monk may not care, but the archer sure as hell will. However, a naked caster can be only slightly less effective then a normal caster, in the short run. Spontaneous casters gain an edge over prepared here (not needing a spell book to be of useful the next day). Again, alchemist is screwed over completely, wizard is useful for a day, maybe 2 if the budget their spells, bard does not care, and sorcerer just laughs as he destroys everything.

It also depends what you are fighting. Ghosts and other incorporeals will kill the party, no mater how weak you make them. Animals and the like will be minimally different.


So this is the official advice (do note that it's for adjusting CR for NPCs).

NPC Gear Adjustments wrote:

You can significantly increase or decrease the power level of an NPC with class levels by adjusting the NPC's gear. The combined value of an NPC's gear is given in Creating NPCs on Table: NPC Gear. A classed NPC encountered with no gear should have his CR reduced by 1 (provided that loss of gear actually hampers the NPC), while a classed NPC that instead has gear equivalent to that of a PC (as listed on Table: Character Wealth by Level) has a CR of 1 higher than his actual CR. Be careful awarding NPCs this extra gear, though—especially at high levels, where you can blow out your entire adventure's treasure budget in one fell swoop!

Please note that this is clearly utter !@#$%^&*. A level 20 fighter/warrior/etc. with no gear can be taken out by anything that flies. I'm not even sure it's a CR 10 challenge at that point.

That all being said, I'm not sure there's a good quick and easy adjustment. A level 5 wizard without their gear is fine (bit less AC and saves). A level 5 fighter without their gear is hurting (same as the wizard plus less attack, but their AC and saves are targeted a lot more). For a naked party I'd probably say -1 APL, -1 APL for every 5 levels, doubled for equipment dependent martials (so not barbarians), halved for equipment independent classes. It's probably a little too much at the low end and not enough at the high end but given the spread of the CR system it's well in line with CR guidelines (level 5 naked fighter versus CR 1 Ghoul is probably a fair matchup).


I think it depends, not only on class, but level as well.

Since higher level characters derive larger bonuses from their equipment (+1 at 5th level but +5 at 18th, for example), losing all your gear will hurt more the higher level you are.

A 5th level Fighter who loses his +1 sword has a slightly lower attack, and certain challenges will be much harder (dealing with any incoporeals).

A 20th level Fighter who loses his +5 sword, +6 Belt of Str, Gloves of the Duelist, etc has taken a massive penalty to his attacks.


Samasboy1 wrote:

I think it depends, not only on class, but level as well.

Since higher level characters derive larger bonuses from their equipment (+1 at 5th level but +5 at 18th, for example), losing all your gear will hurt more the higher level you are.

A 5th level Fighter who loses his +1 sword has a slightly lower attack, and certain challenges will be much harder (dealing with any incoporeals).

A 20th level Fighter who loses his +5 sword, +6 Belt of Str, Gloves of the Duelist, etc has taken a massive penalty to his attacks.

I'd also put in a mention for AC, which for many character isn't going to scale upwards at all without magic.

The Exchange

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Others have already mentioned the very large spread that 'gearless' has on CR (though nobody's mentioned the poor alchemist, the one class who's even more boned than the archer builds).

So I'll just say that if you want the players to feel happy about their current predicament, include an encounter with a lair full of rust monsters.

"Aren't we glad this didn't happen a week ago?!"


Yeah, the party level is 5 and the naked sequence is relatively brief. In terms of what they're fighting, they're basically fighting a couple of guards, but that combat only occurs if they're not sneaky.

Basically, the idea is that the adventure opens with each member of the party waking up in a laboratory, naked and lying on surgical tables. The adventure revolves around them getting their stuff back, figuring out how they got there (none of them remember), and escaping the facility.

Thanks for your feedback, everyone.


5th level Wizards with no spell component pouch are CR 1/3 (a wizard is equivalent to a warrior half his level rounding down (2d6 is more than 1d10, but the wizard has a terrible stat distribution and effectively no feats at all unless he's a very odd wizard). Warrior is an NPC class for -1. The complete lack of even NPC gear is another -2. In CR 2-3=1/3.

For martials level-2 is probably decent near level 5.

Sorcerers are unaffected at such a low level.

Clerics or oracles who can improvise holy symbols contribute at level-1 (if you want to split hairs hard core battle clerics may be level-2 like martials and pure caster clerics might be full level like sorcerers with tweener builds like the reach cleric at level-1). If they can't improvise holy symbols they probably rate CR 1/2 for the same reason a wizard without a spell component pouch rates CR 1/3.

Classes with both spells and class features are harder to judge since they don't become warriors when deprived of their spell component pouch like the wizard, but do retain some class features beyond just hitting things.


Chengar Qordath wrote:


I'd also put in a mention for AC, which for many character isn't going to scale upwards at all without magic.

Indeed, I did not mean to imply that attacks would be the only thing affected. That's why I first just used the word "bonuses."

The example is just one of many things affected: saves, attack, damage, AC, movement... the list goes on. And that list will be much larger for higher level characters.

For a 5th level party, a fairly short scene where you have the equipment of a 1st level character should not be too onerous. You haven't yet reached the level of true gear-reliance.


Well, typically at lower levels it does not matter as much. When they hit higher levels, typically I'll look at the HD of the creatures they are fighting. It's an old school thing, where the HD typically can give you an idea of around what level should be facing it. So something with 10 HD may be a challenge for a 10th level character, and four 10 HD creatures would be around the equal CR.

Of course, this doesn't take into account the special abilities and other factors that the creature may have.

It's a nice round about estimate I've found. AT lower level it doesn't matter as much (look at 4 orcs for example and their CR compared to 1st or 2nd level characters, and then look at 4 Ogres and their CR taking into account their damage and AC they can deal and you start to get a picture of how this might work).

However, it's a might more tricky than normal CR, but that's the first thing I normally start taking a look at for a "naked" (or at least a party with no magic items) party.

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