It changes your odds of hitting by a pretty large amount, and also reduces chances of critting.
Repeating wrong statements does not make them right. It doesn't matter if you label them as "opinion" or not. If your opinion is that the capital of France is Rome, you're still wrong.
As for my contention being false, I don't see how throwing numbers on a screen can prove an opinion wrong.I believe the -4 balances the double barreled pistol. Showing math that proves that full BAB types often hit stuff doesn't really change my mind.
People may disagree, and that is their right, but you can't prove me wrong when I have a belief in something. It's just my opinion.
because your asserting your opinion like you think the sky is red.
some things are opinions other things are gut feelings that are wrong.
Interesting thought you have there.
Thankfully, you don't get to declare what is and is not my opinion. Such is the nature of free will.
no but I can declare that something being a balance placed upon a system is measurable and prove it correct or false. (thus making it not an opinion, and thoughts to the contrary objectively incorrect)
quite salty a response when I intended no harm.
edit:
nor do I think the -4 to be a negligible penalty. It changes your odds of hitting by a pretty large amount, and also reduces chances of critting.
both completely objectively false, you still only crit on a 20(and you get 2 chances to do this, so the odds are better) (unless you got some crit bonus and for some reason can only hit on a 16 or higher)
basically, you get 2 attacks, the -4 does not change the fact the weapon has a higher chance to hit with at least 1 shot or do more damage by hitting with both.
As for my contention being false, I don't see how throwing numbers on a screen can prove an opinion wrong.
I believe the 2+2=5. Showing a bunch of math doesn't really change my mind.
People may disagree, and that is their right, but you can't prove me wrong when I have a belief in something. It's just my opinion.
It changes your odds of hitting by a pretty large amount, and also reduces chances of critting.Repeating wrong statements does not make them right. It doesn't matter if you label them as "opinion" or not. If your opinion is that the capital of France is Rome, you're still wrong.
Just to be clear here, you are telling me that I'm not expressing my opinion, and that I'm wrong about thinking the -4 being a big penalty?
If I'm going to have to comply to your rules of expressing myself, would you mind providing me with a copy of them so I can avoid embarrassing myself like this again?
So sorry for the mixup, I can't believe I had the nerve to claim I was capable of independent thought. How rude of me.
Just to be clear here, you are telling me that I'm not expressing my opinion, and that I'm wrong about thinking the -4 being a big penalty?It changes your odds of hitting by a pretty large amount, and also reduces chances of critting.Repeating wrong statements does not make them right. It doesn't matter if you label them as "opinion" or not. If your opinion is that the capital of France is Rome, you're still wrong.
You are right that you think that -4 is a big penalty.
You are wrong in that -4 is not a big penalty.
So sorry for the mixup, I can't believe I had the nerve to claim I was capable of independent thought. How rude of me.
Oh, I believe that you're capable of independent thought. I'm not entirely sure of your capacity for correct thought -- and that's the problem.
As for my contention being false, I don't see how throwing numbers on a screen can prove an opinion wrong.
I believe the 2+2=5. Showing a bunch of math doesn't really change my mind.
People may disagree, and that is their right, but you can't prove me wrong when I have a belief in something. It's just my opinion.
actually we can, 2+2=4
this is with the assumption:
2 represents two objects, prepresented a II, or the amount of I listed.
4 represents four objects, presented as IIII or the amount of I listed.
+ represents the grouping of a number with another number(one of those numbers being on the right, of the symbol, and the other on the left) so that the amount is combines equally
= represents that the arithmetic on one side is of equal amounts or of the same amount.
if any of that is different, it's simply a semantics issue.
As for my contention being false, I don't see how throwing numbers on a screen can prove an opinion wrong.
I believe the 2+2=5. Showing a bunch of math doesn't really change my mind.
People may disagree, and that is their right, but you can't prove me wrong when I have a belief in something. It's just my opinion.
See, I won't try to tell you it is wrong to think that...
However, 2+2 is not 5, my friend.
I respect your belief, and won't try to tell you your opinion is wrong, but actual, factual informative statements are subject to debate.
For example, I believe the double barreled pistol to be balanced. The statement I am making is my opinion on something.
I'm not asserting that it has a longer range, or does more damage than, say, a maximized fireball, those would be incorrect.
If I said that a -4 penalty would halve your chances of hitting, I would expect a debate, because it sometimes will be true, but sometimes not.
If I said that a -4 penalty was actually a -6 penalty, I would expect to be told I'm wrong.
If I said I thought a -4 penalty was a big penalty, I wouldn't normally expect people to tell me I'm wrong, because that is a subjective statement. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean I'm wrong, it just means you don't agree with me.
stuff
we're going under the assumption that by stating something is a penalty, you're stating that it is an effectual penalty, or has an effect that decreases it's relevant ability.
if this is wrong then we haven't actually been arguing with each other as we're not on opposing points
the -4 penalty comes with a clause that it only applies when you fire both barrels, this means you may attack twice. this attack is likely against touch AC and thus requires very low rolls to succeed.
to hit with a normal pistol, you need to hit on a 6, that is a 75% chance to hit.
with 2 shots, you need a 10 to hit. this yields: %30.6 chance to hit with both barrels, a 49.1% chance to hit with only 1, and a 20% chance to miss. yielding a 80% accuracy rate.
if you need to hit on a 10, this is a 55% chance to hit.
this yields a hit on 14 or 35% chance on a double barrel: 12% chance to hit with both barrels, you hit with only 1 barrel 45% of the time, and miss 42% of the time, yielding a 57% accuracy rating.
in both of those, the double barreled is not only more accurate, but has a chance for increased damage and higher overall crit chances.
Kestral, of course I don't think a bonus to hit is a penalty to hit, that's silly.
-4 means you subtract from what you roll.
It lowers the chances of hitting.
Looks to me like you are trying to say that isn't the case.
You roll twice, and subtract 4 from each roll.
You don't add to the roll.
Each shot has a reduced chance of hitting. Your odds of inflicting damage increase because of the second roll, I have never even IMPLIED I thought otherwise.
But at the end of the day, I stand by my belief: -4 is a hefty penalty, and subtracting from a roll to hit will always reduce the odds of that shot connecting. Subtracting from the roll is not adding to the roll.
So what, exactly, am I wrong about?
"But, using nothing but actual, factual informative statements, I proved that in the general case, -4 for a second shot is a negative penalty. It is objective fact that taking that -4 penalty increases your accuracy."
You are incorrect. Your accuracy is lessened (on both shots, by the way). HOWEVER, you do increase your chances of inflicting damage because of the second roll. I've never said otherwise. Taking that -4 penalty does, in fact, reduce your accuracy. You do, in fact, subtract that number from the roll. It is not a bonus.
The penalty of -4 is, in my opinion, a big penalty. It is a large number to be subtracted from a roll.
Is the gun powerful and capable of producing better damage per round than the single barreled one? Of course. I've never thought otherwise. The math has been shown, and on no level do I disagree with the DPS calculations.
You aren't giving me any new information.
This is just about me thinking a -4 is a big penalty. Most penalties I have seen in game are smaller than that (witch hexes for -2 etc).
Getting another roll to hit is not an increase in accuracy. It is an increase in your chances of hitting and damaging the target, these things are not actually synonymous.
The difference is subtle, but important. Also irrelevant to the point I was making earlier.
Soooo.... you're having an argument about something that I'm not even talking about, is basically what I'm saying.
So to answer your actual question, of course not. Something that adds to your chance to hit your target adds to your chance to hit.
The double barreled pistol doesn't do that. It gives a second roll at a penalty. It doesn't increase your chances of hitting, it gives you a second attempt at it, which results in more DPS.
I never stated that the penalty would lead to a decrease in average DPS. I know that isn't the case, we all know the math.
Alexd1976...here's your problem: you're confusing accuracy and precision. The double shot most definitely increases your accuracy, while lowering your precision.
If you don't understand that statement, please look it up.
Alexd1976...here's your problem: you're confusing accuracy and precision. The double shot most definitely increases your accuracy, while lowering your precision.
If you don't understand that statement, please look it up.
Saying that subtracting four from your roll increases your chances of hitting is incorrect.
Double shot does not increase your accuracy. It gives you another chance to hit.
Your odds of hitting increase overall, but because of another chance to roll, not because you add something to the roll.
I'm not confused, or wrong, about that.
I'm not sure how you can possibly interpret "my odds of hitting increase" in any way but "my accuracy is increased". But if you're that intent on being pedantic: you are correct, your odds of hitting on any one shot decrease. This penalty is rendered irrelevant by the gains of the second shot, thus making the ability a gain in your chance to hit.
If I give you a ten dollar bill in exchange for two five dollar bills, you are technically correct if you say that you lost two five dollar bills. But only by ignoring half of the equation can you say that you lost $10.
Except it's more like you gave someone a ten-spot in exchange for two nine-dollar certified checks. As you yourself pointed out, the difference in effectiveness from the -4 penalty is negligible, so you find yourself way ahead in terms of what you really wanted.
Kestral, of course I don't think a bonus to hit is a penalty to hit, that's silly.
-4 means you subtract from what you roll.
It lowers the chances of hitting.
Looks to me like you are trying to say that isn't the case.
You roll twice, and subtract 4 from each roll.
You don't add to the roll.
PLEASE LOOK AT MY POST ;-; i do it better.
if at least 1 barrel hit's the effect is the same, and the double barrel causes an increase in overall accuracy causing it to give you a bonus to your overall accuracy.
in essence by taking a -20% to victory, but rolling twice you increase your odds of victory.
The difference is subtle, but important.
NOOOOOO IT IS NOT
this is wholely false, when the end result is the same or better, the difference does not matter.
when your end goal is hitting the target and doing damage, double barrels increases that effectiveness. To your mathematical odds of success, it is a flat boon and is not "balanced" with a normal pistol.
Saying that subtracting four from your roll increases your chances of hitting is incorrect.
out of context yes
Double shot does not increase your accuracy. It gives you another chance to hit.
which increases your accuracy
Your odds of hitting increase overall, but because of another chance to roll, not because you add something to the roll.
which is called an increase to accuracy
I'm not confused, or wrong, about that.
yes you are, to both. specifically along semantic lines.
Here's how you're wrong:
If I have a 70% hit rate with one shot, I will land a hit 70% of the time.
If I drop that down to a 50% hit rate (-4 penalty), but shoot twice, I will land at least one shot 75% of the time.
Is 75% greater than 70%? Yes, of course it is. Hence, accuracy has increased by taking the -4 penalty for a second shot.
You're breaking it down to a per-shot basis instead of a per-attack basis, which gives you a flawed reality because it's ignoring half of the variables.
We aren't talking about damage here, mind, strictly your chance of landing a shot. The damage is a greater differential than the metric I'm using-- in the above case, if you do 10 damage on a single shot, your DPR is 7 with a single shot and .5*10+.25*10*2+.25*0=10 on the double shot, so DPR increases by ~42% (3/7) even though accuracy increased by ~7% (.05/.7). But that's a sideshow: your raw chance of hitting increases.
Subtracting four from a roll results in a lower roll.
-4 is a penalty, not a bonus.
Rolling twice is a bonus, not a penalty.
With this gun, you can roll twice, and apply a penalty to both rolls.
I have not said anything factually incorrect here, have I? Are any of my above statements false?
If so, please cite the book/faq that shows my statements to be false.
Also, Kestral, what is it that you think I'm wrong about, exactly?
I know that you hit more often with this gun.
I don't disagree with that.
It isn't because it is more accurate, it is because you get multiple rolls per attack.
Your accuracy isn't increased, your chances of doing damage are increased.
No amount of arguing will ever get me to think that -4 is a bonus.
The REASON you get the -4 is a bonus.
but -4 is a penalty.
Unless I messed up learning how to add and subtract. I'm pretty sure 1D20-4 will produce, on average, worse results than 1D20.
Are you trying to tell me I'm wrong about that?
I better not do the math myself, someone else wanna calculate the averages on that?
Is, in fact, 1D20-4, going to produce a higher average than 1D20?
finally the accuracy of a single shot is irrelevant to the pistol being balanced since you only gain the -4 penalty when firing with both barrels at the same time.
finally the accuracy of a single shot is irrelevant to the pistol being balanced since you only gain the -4 penalty when firing with both barrels at the same time.
Correct.
Here's how you're wrong:
If I have a 70% hit rate with one shot, I will land a hit 70% of the time.
If I drop that down to a 50% hit rate (-4 penalty), but shoot twice, I will land at least one shot 75% of the time.
Is 75% greater than 70%? Yes, of course it is. Hence, accuracy has increased by taking the -4 penalty for a second shot.
You're breaking it down to a per-shot basis instead of a per-attack basis, which gives you a flawed reality because it's ignoring half of the variables.
We aren't talking about damage here, mind, strictly your chance of landing a shot. The damage is a greater differential than the metric I'm using-- in the above case, if you do 10 damage on a single shot, your DPR is 7 with a single shot and .5*10+.25*10*2+.25*0=10 on the double shot, so DPR increases by ~42% (3/7) even though accuracy increased by ~7% (.05/.7). But that's a sideshow: your raw chance of hitting increases.
Subtracting four from a roll results in a lower roll.
-4 is a penalty, not a bonus.
Rolling twice is a bonus, not a penalty.
With this gun, you can roll twice, and apply a penalty to both rolls.
I have not said anything factually incorrect here, have I? Are any of my above statements false?
If so, please cite the book/faq that shows my statements to be false.
Also, Kestral, what is it that you think I'm wrong about, exactly?
I know that you hit more often with this gun.
I don't disagree with that.It isn't because it is more accurate, it is because you get multiple rolls per attack.
Your accuracy isn't increased, your chances of doing damage are increased.
No amount of arguing will ever get me to think that -4 is a bonus.
The REASON you get the -4 is a bonus.
but -4 is a penalty.
Unless I messed up learning how to add and subtract. I'm pretty sure 1D20-4 will produce, on average, worse results than 1D20.
Are you trying to tell me I'm wrong about that?
I better not do the math myself, someone else wanna...
finally the accuracy of a single shot is irrelevant to the pistol being balanced since you only gain the -4 penalty when firing with both barrels at the same time.Correct.
since you're aware of this, i hate you for going on this tangent.
The difference is subtle, but important.NOOOOOO IT IS NOT
this is wholely false, when the end result is the same or better, the difference does not matter.
when your end goal is hitting the target and doing damage, double barrels increases that effectiveness. To your mathematical odds of success, it is a flat boon and is not "balanced" with a normal pistol.
OH! You think I believe this double barreled pistol to be balanced compared to the single barreled one!
I don't.
Not at all. I meant balanced in the sense that it isn't broken, gamewise!
Martials need more love, this gun helps.
Sure don't like that -4 penalty though.
since you're aware of this, i hate you for going on this tangent.finally the accuracy of a single shot is irrelevant to the pistol being balanced since you only gain the -4 penalty when firing with both barrels at the same time.Correct.
You don't like me acknowledging you being correct about something?
Huh. I'm getting a little confused about your motivations.
since you're aware of this, i hate you for going on this tangent.finally the accuracy of a single shot is irrelevant to the pistol being balanced since you only gain the -4 penalty when firing with both barrels at the same time.Correct.You don't like me acknowledging you being correct about something?
Huh. I'm getting a little confused about your motivations.
no no no no no, I don't like that this argument happened.
SEMANTICS!!!!! YOU CRUEL MISTRESS!!!!!
Me: subtracting four produces lower numbers on rolls
Others: not true!
Me: wut?
Me: subtracting four produces lower numbers on rolls
Others: not true!
Me: wut?
this is exactly semantics if you don't actually know what semantics is.
Did anyone find a lid in this thread? I seem to have left my can of worms open.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Did anyone find a lid in this thread? I seem to have left my can of worms open.
I think it can be found near the 10 foot pit over there. The one with all those people jumping around it.
Alexd1976...here's your problem: you're confusing accuracy and precision. The double shot most definitely increases your accuracy, while lowering your precision.
If you don't understand that statement, please look it up.
Saying that subtracting four from your roll increases your chances of hitting is incorrect.
Double shot does not increase your accuracy. It gives you another chance to hit.
Your odds of hitting increase overall, but because of another chance to roll, not because you add something to the roll.
I'm not confused, or wrong, about that.
Didn't bother to look up the difference between accuracy and precision, did you?
Is a shotgun more or less accurate when firing shot (within the effectI've range of shot)? It is certainly more accurate, though less precise than a slug. If you can't understand this simple difference, you are both confused and wrong.
AS long as we are referring to IRL, you guys do know, even now, they have things called double barreled shotguns.
Some of you have pretty solid ideas on how it works, some of you have some rather weird ideas about how double barreled shotguns work IRL.
PF of course is NOT IRL, but making the comparisons...some rather unique ideas from some in this thread.
How many have actually used a double barrel IRL?
Maybe that would indicate how we have some realistic answers and some really far out there unique answers in this thread.
A whole new meaning to double-stack magazines .
For when two barrels just aren't enough.
Seriously though, IRL I would probably prefer 2 more careful shots, but rules-wise it's a lot smarter to fire both at once. (Which is still a more accurate attack, since both shots are part of the same action, which means the effect does in fact make your attack more accurate. Just not each shot.)
I have fired a double barreled shotgun, but only an over-under style, which is pretty different. When firing shot, they're pretty stupid easy to hit stuff with. (Bird shot)