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If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster’s CR. Treat the monster’s CR as class levels when determining the monster PC’s overall levels.
You can use the monsters on the following table as guidelines when determining effective cohort levels for monsters not on this list.
This method provides conflicting results, and I'm trying to figure out why.
Take a Satyr as an example:Monster as PC rule, it is a level 4 PC.
Cohort listing, it is a level 7 Cohort
What is the best way to determine levels of a Monster Race when being compared to the PCs?
There is no consistent rule for what effective cohort level monsters have.
Creatures with the same HD and CR have wildly different cohort levels.
Exactly!
The cohort starts with NPC wealth, that reduces his CR.
For example a level 4 PC is CR4, while a cohort would be CR3.
So the satyr is CR 4 but a CR4 classed cohort has more than 4 class levels
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The cohort starts with NPC wealth, that reduces his CR.
For example a level 4 PC is CR4, while a cohort would be CR3.
So the satyr is CR 4 but a CR4 classed cohort has more than 4 class levels
bestiary lists Satyr as a 7th lvl equivalent cohort, regardless of wealth.
and since a cohort has to be 2 levels beneath you,
my 4th lvl PC equivalent Satyr would need 5 additional class levels for an equivalent of 9th lvl, in order to have his brother Satyr be a cohort
My point is, this doesn't seem right...
The cohort starts with NPC wealth, that reduces his CR.
For example a level 4 PC is CR4, while a cohort would be CR3.
So the satyr is CR 4 but a CR4 classed cohort has more than 4 class levels
bestiary lists Satyr as a 7th lvl equivalent cohort, regardless of wealth.
and since a cohort has to be 2 levels beneath you,
my 4th lvl PC equivalent Satyr would need 5 additional class levels for an equivalent of 9th lvl, in order to have his brother Satyr be a cohortMy point is, this doesn't seem right...
My point is that a cohort of equal level to a PC is weaker. So a cohort need more that 4 levels to be strong as a Satyr
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another redirect to some nonrelated pointnonrelated pointme saying stuff that is related to my thread
Not even sure how what you're saying is relevant.
yes. all cohorts are NPCs, and they are considered -1lvl to PCs if they have NPC wealth.why do you think this has any bearing on my overall question?
Im talking about playing a Satyr as a PC taking another Satyr as a cohort.
I would be playing a Satyr that would need to take 5 additional class levels in order to take a 7th lvl equiv cohort- Satyr.
which is a creature that is the same race as my character is
its like having a 9th lvl human, and being told that my human cohort can only be 4th lvl.
If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster’s CR. Treat the monster’s CR as class levels when determining the monster PC’s overall levels.You can use the monsters on the following table as guidelines when determining effective cohort levels for monsters not on this list.This method provides conflicting results, and I'm trying to figure out why.
Because creatures have different capacities as short-term opponents and long-term allies. Challenge Rating is, as it says on the label, a measure of how much challenge a creature provides as an opponent, but that may greatly understate its value as an ally.
As a simple example, a monster with a power that can be used every ten minutes (or less often) can use it only once against you; after that, it's either dead or escaped. A succubus cohort could use her 1/day dominate person to make you a small brute squad and give everyone around a +2 profane gift. A effreti could grant you three wishes per day. That makes them much more valuable than a bulette or stone giant as a cohort, despite all being CR 7-8.
A satyr is a fey, and so not much of a combat threat --- but has a shedload of very useful spell-like abilities on top of your own.
Basically the "monster level" thing is not really a rule, but a suggestion/guideline. That is because monsters are based on CR because they are short term opponents, but some of them have powers that really good if you have them as long term characters. It was never intended for these monsters to be used, but Paizo knew some people would want to try it so they came up with guidelines.
Because creatures have different capacities as short-term opponents and long-term allies.
But that is exactly the point.
Whether you are using the monster as a PC or Cohort, you have long term access to their abilities.
So having two wildly, completely different guidelines for what its effective level should doesn't make any sense.
Basically the "monster level" thing is not really a rule, but a suggestion/guideline. That is because monsters are based on CR because they are short term opponents, but some of them have powers that really good if you have them as long term characters. It was never intended for these monsters to be used, but Paizo knew some people would want to try it so they came up with guidelines.
That doesn't address the disparity in PC and Cohort levels, which is the point of the thread.
So having two wildly, completely different guidelines for what its effective level should doesn't make any sense.
Well, I don't have my copy of Bestiary to hand, but I'm fairly sure there are a lot of caveats and hedges around the CR=PC Level rule that the OP omitted when he provided the quotation. PFSRD says "GMs should carefully consider any monster PCs in their groups. Some creatures are simply not suitable for play as PCs, due to their powers or role in the game."
Basically, I'd not allow a Satyr PC as a 4th level equivalent. If you look at Seoni at level 7, a CR 4 Satyr has better saves, more hit points, better BAB, more attacks, and an infinite number of third level SLAs. The only advantage Seoni has is in AC,.... and that's only if she spends spell slots to buff herself.
Well, I don't have my copy of Bestiary to hand, but I'm fairly sure there are a lot of caveats and hedges around the CR=PC Level rule that the OP omitted when he provided the quotation. PFSRD says "GMs should carefully consider any monster PCs in their groups. Some creatures are simply not suitable for play as PCs, due to their powers or role in the game."
Basically, I'd not allow a Satyr PC as a 4th level equivalent. If you look at Seoni at level 7, a CR 4 Satyr has better saves, more hit points, better BAB, more attacks, and an infinite number of third level SLAs. The only advantage Seoni has is in AC,.... and that's only if she spends spell slots to buff herself.
That only illustratrates that BOTH rules are bad.
After all, why play a 4th level Sorcerer if you can play an Aranea (5HD and casts as a 5th level Sorcerer). [PC rule]
On the other hand, choose a Stone Giant cohort instead of even an 18th level Human Fighter. The Fighter's Base Attack alone is higher than the giant's total attack bonus, not to mention the giant only has 12 HD.
But having a single consistent bad rule still seems preferable to two different inconsistent bad rules.
Side note: wouldn't the Bard be a better comparison for a Satyr?
That only illustratrates that BOTH rules are bad.
Not really. It just illustrates that the GM has a job to do. Granted, it's more explicit in the second rule ("use the monsters on the following table as guidelines"), especially when you manage to ignore the part of the PC rule where it says "Some monsters are not suitable."
After all, why play a 4th level Sorcerer if you can play an Aranea (5HD and casts as a 5th level Sorcerer).
Because you'll enjoy the game where you're a 4th level Sorcerer much more, because the GM has a chance of being at least semi-competent.
Side note: wouldn't the Bard be a better comparison for a Satyr?
No. I'll let you earn your GM stripes by figuring out why.
Basically the "monster level" thing is not really a rule, but a suggestion/guideline. That is because monsters are based on CR because they are short term opponents, but some of them have powers that really good if you have them as long term characters. It was never intended for these monsters to be used, but Paizo knew some people would want to try it so they came up with guidelines.That doesn't address the disparity in PC and Cohort levels, which is the point of the thread.
I completely misread the thread.
My new answer is these rules don't make sense, and the GM will have to step in to fix them.
Not really. It just illustrates that the GM has a job to do.
A rule that requires this much GM input to make any sense is a bad rule. Rule 0 is not a rule argument.
No. I'll let you earn your GM stripes by figuring out why.
Dude, you can shove your condescending attitude.
Despite that, even though Fey racial HD are similar to Sorcerer class levels in some respects, racial HD ARE NOT class levels.
The ROLE of the Satyr is closer to that of a Bard (IMO), so that is the comparison that makes sense. You expect the Bard to cast some buffs, some enchantments, and some fighting. That is the same kind of thing you expect from the Satyr. Not Fireball and Fly.
Despite that, even though Fey racial HD are similar to Sorcerer class levels in some respects, racial HD ARE NOT class levels.
Of course not.
The ROLE of the Satyr is closer to that of a Bard,
Nope. Satyrs are lousy combatants (half BAB, no useful weapon proficiencies), but have overpoweringly effective SLAs, so Sorcerer is more appropriate.
You expect the Bard to cast some buffs, some enchantments, and some fighting.
... and you expect a satyr to do exactly one of those three things. Not all sorcerers cast fireball but they all cast spells, and they do little else. Like a Satyr.
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Actually, I would have to agree with both - but a bard would make more sense.
Racial bonus to perform, perception, and stealth
+8 chr
charm person and suggestion at will - and ghost sound
8th lvl CL
put on a hat of disguise to hide the horns, and youre all set.
either way. this is a tangent of the OP.
Nope. Satyrs are lousy combatants (half BAB, no useful weapon proficiencies)
BAB isn't an issue since, despite being CR 4, it has 8 HD. So it has the same BAB as a equal CR Fighter.
And it is proficient with all simple weapons and the short bow. That's plenty considering he isn' t a front line fighter.