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The alternate title for this thread was going to be Possession is 9/10ths of the law!
Magic Jar and possess object both open up a world of thought-induced nosebleeds. Imagine if you will the following scenario:
A 6' tall male elf spellcaster successfully possesses a 5' tall male tiefling fighter and then gathers his spell components so that he can cast the following spells:
- Shrink object and reduce person on his for-all-intents-and-purposes dead body
- Alter self (to look less like a tiefling and more like a female gnome)
- Enlarge Person on the newly possessed body
- Paragon surge to gain the toughness feat
- Dancing lantern
But before any of his spells can run out, he returns to his original body.
- A. What size is the spell caster?
- B. What size is the fighter?
- C. Who does the lantern circle?
- D. Which, if any, of these two men now appears to be female?
- E. Who became more charismatic?
- F. Who gained dexterity and toughness?
- G. How small was the Elf's corpse just before he repossessed it?
So what do we use to lure him to the rules forum, beer, pizza, ? :)
PFS has no specific rules regarding this situation. Flagged for moving to the rules forum.
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Also, an elf cannot cast the paragon surge spell. Half-elves only. And a tiefling is not a person and so cannot be enlarged by such. ^_^
That was mistake on my part. I meant for the spell caster to be a half-elf. This point was to, indirectly, clarify the hatred of rangers; trying to determine if it would still work on the tiefling possessed by the half-elf. (would, during that brief moment, an attacking ranger need to hate humans and/or elves or would tieflings still be the effective object to hate.
You cast on a body, why would the magic affect a soul.
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Did he also remember to take off that fighter's armor when he started casting his boat load of spells? Did he remember to pick up his spell pouch and arcane bond if any? You don't get around Arcane Spell Failure and other aspects of casting by moving into another body.
Excellent point. Let's assume that the fighter was in his sleeping robe, for simplicity's sake, since its a distinct issue from the whole mind/body topic.
The answer to the question is on a case by case basis, generally siding on whatever is worse for the caster.
I'm hoping to fall more on the side of the official rules. I'd hate to punish a caster just for being one, especially if the rules would did work in his favor.
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"Body" and "Soul" might be too off-topic.
"PC" and "NPC" are closer, in my mind.
Because, as someone mentioned earlier, the character being controlled by the player still has feats, skills, and class abilities that are not dependent on form.
If your character is the target of a Confusion spell, and during your one round of "act normally" you possess another body, does the spell effect travel with you? Or get left behind?
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"Body" and "Soul" might be too off-topic.
"PC" and "NPC" are closer, in my mind.
Because, as someone mentioned earlier, the character being controlled by the player still has feats, skills, and class abilities that are not dependent on form.
If your character is the target of a Confusion spell, and during your one round of "act normally" you possess another body, does the spell effect travel with you? Or get left behind?
Actually, that's a good point. Things that affect the mind should continue to affect you even if you move to a different body.
Things that affect you physical, should stay with the body.
In this case enlarge person, paragon surge, and alter self would all stay with the body (though keep in mind some are polymorph affects and can't be stacked, and enlarge person can't be stacked with any other size changes).
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Huh, that's weird. It says "Wait for July."
do you gain the type of the new creature you possess, if yes, i'd say with body since a ton of magic seems to be based on type.
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What about Bestow Curse?
Are you cursing the "body"? The "mind"? Or the "player character"?
Exactly! I can visualize a situation in which a possessed person gains the physical aspects of the curse while the departing possessor takes with him the mental aspects of the curse. Maybe paragon surge should also.
And nobody has really tackled question G yet. I didn't really expect reduce person and shrink object to stack, but I was hoping to clarify if a body (that for all intents and purposes is dead) would count as an object when it is devoid of the mind(/spirit/soul) portion. Which of the two spells do you use to make a fallen ally's body more portable?
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Huh, that's weird. It says "Wait for July."
What does THIS ONE say?
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I don't think there is a rule for this. I would vary it by spell. Physical affects would be on the body it was cast on, but mental affects would travel with soul.
I agree that control of creatures follows the soul.
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You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities.
I would rule that effects that target the mind (Int, Wis, Cha) go with the mind, and effects that target the body (Str, Dex, Con) stay with the body.
For the situation in the original post I would say that when the caster returns to his body the shrink spell would dismiss because the body is no longer an "object". Just before re-possessing the elf body it would be size fine. If reduce person was allowed (which might not be on a dead body, but that brings up a sticky issue as to whether a body is a person or object, or both or neither) the reduce person would persist if allowed. So the elf would be small in that case.
The tiefling body would be large if it wasn't for the fact that tieflings are not "persons" and can't be enlarged with enlarge person. Any other humanoid would have remained enlarged though.
Likewise, the tiefling would assume the form of a gnome, but I don't think polymorph spells actually change your type. Look up discussions on "polymorph any object" for more on this debate. So even in gnome form, the tiefling could not be the target of enlarge person.
Paragon surge would fail if used in tiefling form because in the spell description it says it turns you into "something greater than elf or human alone". Since you are not a half elf it doesn't work. It would be like if a dwarf wizard tried to cast paragon surge, it just wouldn't work. Paragon surge might be able to worth with a UMD check, but I would have to argue it out for a while before deciding :)
Finally, the dancing lantern would move over to the elf after going back. The description says, "the lantern always acts as if in your possession even when not directly on your person". While you are possessing the tiefling, you are the tiefling, so the lantern follows you. When you go back you are the elf, so the lantern follows you.
On a related note, I used a similar magic jar trick recently to possess my barbarian friend with with a high strength, so I could cast blood money and make a permanent demi-plane for free.
wut
Probably Occult Adventures, which gets released next week.
Huh, that's weird. It says "Wait for July."
With July being upon us now, I was wondering to which resource you were referring.
will we get clarifications regarding body/soul and magic's relation to it mechanically?
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will we get clarifications regarding body/soul and magic's relation to it mechanically?Probably Occult Adventures, which gets released next week.
Huh, that's weird. It says "Wait for July."
With July being upon us now, I was wondering to which resource you were referring.
That's my hope, however there's also the possibility that something was already released and I missed its reference to this topic. This question could also be directed at anybody who has read all the books released in July.