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Hello all!
There has been some discussion in my local Pathfinder Society Lodge about the wording of the Precise Strike Swashbuckler Deed and how it relates to the Daring Champion Cavalier Archetype, and I was hoping for an official rules clarification.
At level 4 the Daring Champion gains access to certain Swashbuckler deeds, among them is Precise Strike. The exact text is:
"At 4th level, a daring champion gains the swashbuckler’s panache class feature, along with the following swashbuckler deeds: dodging panache, opportune parry and riposte, precise strike, and swashbuckler initiative. This ability replaces expert trainer."
That is the full text of the section.
The issue that has been brought up is that nowhere in the Daring Champion Archetype description, nor in the specific ability that grants access to Swashbuckler Deeds, does it say that a Daring Champion counts their Cavalier levels as Swashbuckler levels for the purpose of Deeds. This becomes an issue because the wording of Precise Strike states:
"a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt."
A Daring Champion has no actual levels as a Swashbuckler, and thus gains absolutely nothing from the Precise Strike Deed if it is being run strictly RAW, which PFS is.
Though it seems obvious that RAI Daring Champions should gain some benefit from the abilities, it isn't clear what the benefit should be.
Does a Daring Champion count all Cavalier levels as Swashbuckler levels, do they could their Cavalier levels -3 at Swashbuckler levels (as level 4 is when they gain a panache pool and deeds), or do they gain absolutely nothing from an ability they are granted?
This may seem like a minor issue, but some GMs locally are adamant about RAW, and losing Precise Strike is a huge detriment to Daring Champions.
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1. I don't believe they are intended to gain nothing from a granted ability.
2. As written they don't have a swashbuckler level.
3. For me at a guess I think their swashbuckler level is their Daring Champion - 3, similar to a paladin's cleric level is paladin - 3 for channels. (I can see arguments for all their levels counting or fewer)
I think this reasonably fits the criteria for being a FAQ question (as it's not the first time it has at least been mentioned), and as such have marked it that way.
We have several Devs telling us to Assume the rules actually function. To say the precise strike dosent work or to make up a arbitray -3 level is silly. If you really have local a GM telling you that precise strike give a Daring Champion no benefit from precise strike? Send a mail to the PFS managers and ask to have him kicked, since he is clearly unfit for his role.
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It isn't an arbitrary -3, they don't gain any of the features of being a swashbuckler until level 4, just like paladins don't have any cleric features until level 4 thus determining their level for channeling. The GM in question doesn't want the feature not to work, just wants there not to be variance in how it works. There are arguments to be made for a couple of different totals.
I certainly don't want any of our GMs kicked. Its not that they are going out of their way to ruin the fun of the players, just that there is some well meaning concern and confusion over how an ability works.
From a strictly technical standpoint the Daring Champion gains nothing. I don't think a player would be forced to do that considering how vastly different it is from the intention, but trying to lay their own groundwork for the rules isn't supposed to be the job of PFS GMs. Run as written, after all.
Which is why the question was brought to the forums. All parties involved in the discussion agree that a simple and official response will put the issue to rest and let the fun resume.
Also a strong argument can, and has locally, been made for the class level -3 argument, as many classes that gain late access to an ability take a penalty for it (such as the Paladin example BartonOliver provided).
I certainly don't want any of our GMs kicked. Its not that they are going out of their way to ruin the fun of the players, just that there is some well meaning concern and confusion over how an ability works.
From a strictly technical standpoint the Daring Champion gains nothing. I don't think a player would be forced to do that considering how vastly different it is from the intention, but trying to lay their own groundwork for the rules isn't supposed to be the job of PFS GMs. Run as written, after all.
Which is why the question was brought to the forums. All parties involved in the discussion agree that a simple and official response will put the issue to rest and let the fun resume.
Also a strong argument can, and has locally, been made for the class level -3 argument, as many classes that gain late access to an ability take a penalty for it (such as the Paladin example BartonOliver provided).
i am amazed you ever get to play anything if you actually go by unthinking RAW. I dont belive that any text can have meaning with out interpretation so in my mind to claim there is RAW dosent make sense.
i am amazed you ever get to play anything if you actually go by unthinking RAW. I dont belive that any text can have meaning with out interpretation so in my mind to claim there is RAW dosent make sense.Thanks for the help.
He he.
Yeah I agree with the others.
That level of posting is not acceptable in the rules forum cap darling, if you think others are being silly be reading the rules and following them, you should probably not post in the rules forum.
Unfortunately, because you have no swashbuckler levels, precise strike does nothing. Hopefully it is faq'd to do something soon!
Ok. I was not aware i was out of Line. Yes i think it is silly, and a bit rude, to assume the game is made to not work.
The ha ha was because i was actually amused by bartons joke not to be rude.Have a Nice Day and enjoy your games.
Its less assuming the game was made not to work and more being confused by what the real result is. No one actually thinks Daring Champions get Precise Strike and can never gain anything from it, but there are arguments to be made for how big a bonus they get when there shouldn't be, especially when a simple FAQ can answer it.
Its less assuming the game was made not to work and more being confused by what the real result is. No one actually thinks Daring Champions get Precise Strike and can never gain anything from it, but there are arguments to be made for how big a bonus they get when there shouldn't be, especially when a simple FAQ can answer it.
but there are no indication of there being any reduktion in the level it works on. That is wishfull thinking from folks that think the AT is over powered. When they fix the mess that is ACG they will most likely change several things. But until then -3 May as well be -1 sice the swashbuckler get the deed at level 3 and the DC gets it at 4. As it is now it either works or it dosent. Those are the rules.
It is true that, by RAW, the Daring Champion gains nothing from having Precise Strike or any other Swashbuckler abilities that scale with level.
However, this is only one of many ACG abilities that do not function properly due to a failure in editing. Currently the most reasonable thing to do is to just assume that DC's get Cavalier=Swashbuckler level (remember that Swashbucklers aren't getting Precise Strike at level 1 either).
Not to derail the thread, but do you know what other issues there are? If we can FAQ them all together maybe the ACG can receive a more complete FAQ.
The current FAQ only has three questions on it.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gw
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Not to derail the thread, but do you know what other issues there are? If we can FAQ them all together maybe the ACG can receive a more complete FAQ.
The current FAQ only has three questions on it.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gw
Expect major changes with the 2nd printing errata. I don't know when that is coming, but it's been hinted that it will be extensive.
Thanks for that. Still a little new to actually posting on the forums here.
Edit:
And I just realized the FAQ has 4 questions on it, not 3.
While the errata that has been published in the meantime has changed the archetype's Panache and Deed class feature (removing the opportune parry and riposte deed), it has done nothing to address the level question.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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A Daring Champion has no actual levels as a Swashbuckler
You are taking this too literally. You gain it with a Cavalier level. So it uses your Cavalier. Look at the spell known FAQ, it clarifies that you don't gain spells added to your spell list in a way you can cast them unless gained by a class feature. In the same way, if a class feature says you can use it then your effective level for the ability is your level in the class granting it unless otherwise specified.