Hi Paizo Forums!
I am looking for help finding a viable weapon agnostic TWF Build.
Requirements:
- no weapon specific feats, if possible (weapon focus, spec, etc)
- a martial theme (no, or little, rogue, bard, etc)
- 25 point buy (try not to dump int/char, if possible)
Any advice is welcome!
Thanks!
Pretty much every TWF build can be viable without weapon specific feats, depending on what your definition of viable is. They probably won't be the most powerful build you can make, but that's because pathfinder rewards specialization over generalization. That being said you'll probably only be a few +s to hit/dmg behind the specialization character without these feats.
Also what level range are you looking at? And is there a specific goal with the character other than being able to use more than one weapon that you want to achieve? Because that might give people something to work towards, other than pointing you to other TWFer builds, and just saying don't take the weapon feats.
I recommend Ranger or Slayer. Use STR as your primary ability score and pick up the TWF feats using the style bonus feats (so that you can bypass the restrictions).
Your bonus to-hit and damage to keep competitive comes from favoured enemy or studied target. You don't have any synergy with weapon finesse, which allows you to use basically any weapon you feel like.
That's all there is to it, really.
Go Slayer or Ranger. Pick the TWF Combat Style.
Bam, done.
Which you go with depends on what you want from the build. Slayer's more 'martial' so I'd go with that.
Stat-wise, you could go with something like this:
Str 18 (+2 from Human) Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 10
Or switch some of that up a little for more Int and Cha at the expensse of Wis, if you like. Or Dex 15 so you can get Double Slice (which makes the build's math simpler, if you care).
EDIT: Ninja'd a bit. Ah, well.
Slayer with 15 Dex using the Ranger Combat Style to pick up the needed feats with high Dex requirements.
That's frankly about all there is to it.
Thanks for the quick response, guys.
I had already considered the Slayer + Ranger Combat Styles options, and that might work quite well. I had also considered the Mobile Fighter, as that provides the ability to pseudo-full attack on the go, weapon-agnostic "weapon training"-esque class ability, etc.
A little more info (copied from another thread I made, which unfortunately gained no traction).
I intially envisioned him in 3.0/3.5 as a TWF fighter, back when there was no weapon training. The existance of which makes his build much less optimal than it was in the past, and even then it was more for flavor.
- TWF Character (whether STR or DEX is irrelavent)
- Uses primarily a longsword in main hand (family heirloom)
- Has a few other "situational weapons" which he totes around as a sort of go-to-armory. Things like a disruption light mace, merciful light hammer, returning handaxe, defending shortsword, etc.
- He has a gauntlet that grants the "Called" special attribute to up to 5 weapons, which are those in his "armory"
- In the original concept, when he was "done" with a weapon or needed a different one for a situation...he simply threw the unneeded one at a random target or dropped it, recalling it later with the Called property when necessary. This was made possible by the Throw Anything feat, which I'd like to keep if possible. If it also becomes semi-viable (through the use of such things as "Opening Volley" for example) that would be even cooler.
- He's moderately charismatic and intelligent, but slightly head-strong and reckless. Storyline NPC, so used 25 Point buy.
Of note is the fact that he does not fight in a vacuum. He has a dedicate cadre of bodyguards/lieutenants and they fight smoothly as a team. The other members are 1) Dwarven Barb/Fighter, 2) Paladin (Holy Tactician) 3) Archer Slayer (or ranger) 4) Tower-Shield Fighter (with bodyguard, in harm's way, etc).
So any additional feedback related to the expanded character concept is also appreciated!
Slayer definitely seems the way to go then. What level is he? That'll allow better build advice.
You have to go Str oriented to be weapon agnostic.
Slayer is mechanically best for that. Seems like you pretty much have the rest figured out.
Just a thought, but Brawler is another way to look at this. You get the improved Unarmed for free and the damage increases as you level. You do not need the 13 INT for combat expertise thanks to brawler's cunning too.
Monk is also along the same lines (perhaps unchained with his shiny new d10 HD).
New Monk is really bad at TWF, since he doesn't get extra attacks from it.
Brawler and Old Monk both want to use one weapon, not two.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Generally speaking, weapon-agnostic Two-Weapon Fighting (other than the pseudo version in Flurry of Blows) is most viable until 7th-9th level (when keen and Improved Critical start coming into play). By 11th-13th level (Bashing Finish, Critical Focus chain, etc.) the importance of critical hits is so great that you should be focused on one or two specific combinations; otherwise, you'll lag significantly behind in DPR and other effects.
Basically, there are three "types" of combinations: double weapon (usually dwarven urgosh, gnome hooked hammer, or orc double axe for the racial proficiency; occasionally meteor hammer or one of the monk weapons for maneuvers and/or reach option), "paired" weapons (usually two of the same light weapon such as kukri; sawtooth sabre or a one-handed/light combination for specific effects, such as light flail/sickle for tripping, can also work), and weapon/shield (using Improved Shield Bash to maintain AC; typically scimitar/light quickdraw shield, although a dwarf could get some mileage out of warhammer/light quickdraw shield and Twin Thunders if giants are a common opponent). Double weapon is usually a good choice for a Str-based character, since it can be used as a two-handed weapon (if you can't full attack or want to boost damage with Power Attack) or held in one hand (i.e., to cast a spell, retrieve/consume a potion, etc.) without having to drop the "off-hand" weapon, invest in Quick Draw to stow a quickdraw shield, or dip alchemist for tentacle/vestigial arm. "Paired" weapons (especially at higher levels with a high critical range) tend to have the highest average DPR and are favored for crit-fishing. Weapon/shield usually has the highest AC and close to the DPR (with Shield Mastery and Bashing Finish, along with a high critical range weapon) of "paired" weapons; it tends to have the highest feat investment cost, however.
Great feedback! Thanks to everyone who has contributed!
For reference, the character would be topping out around 16-18, though that's a bit dependent on how the PCs play as he is an ally of the party and runs parallel to them in levels.
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From what I'm reading, weapon agnostic TWF really starts to suffer when the crit chains come into play, regardless on whether you are running double, twin, or sword and board styles. When you run TWF w/ an option other than the above 3, you suffer greatly and it is not because of a lack of weapon training (or similar skills) but instead of combat feats that are in and of themselves NOT weapon agnostic (crit chain, shield bashing chain, etc.)
It seems there is really no weapon-agnostic combat feat chain that can produce viable combat options and damage. I think that's a shame, but I understand that specialization is the name of the game for PF.
Is there any other way to become more flexible with feats, beyond the Brawler's "Martial Flexibility" class ability? I could see a PC investing in a few crit chain feats, as they require Critical Focus and not Imp Crit, and then use some variant of Martial Flexibility to take the appropriate imp-crit feat for the weapon currently being wielded. Could also use Martial Flexibility to swap in the appropriate weapon focus/spec for the currently wielded weapons...but by going brawler, you'd miss out on the weapon agnostic "weapon training" options of fighter archetypes (mobile fighter, two weapon fighter, etc).
Any one else have good ideas regarding viable weapon agnostic combat feats?
Martial master fighter archetype swaps weapon training for martial flexibility. So yo don't need to multiclass.
That's actually a 3.5e -> pf change that makes me a little bit sad. Back when, when your barbarian was leap attacking etc., stuff died, regardless of what you were currently holding onto.
The fact that the shiny pf toys are all weapon specific is kind of cool, but also makes me a little sad.
Anyway, one way to go might be paladin, actually. Smite and Weapon bond doesn't care what you're wielding. Cavalier could be an option for the same reason. They get dex-hungry though, which is a little iffy.
The bounty hunter slayer isn't the top DPR, but its stacking dirty tricks makes it a very powerful debuffer while doing fair damage.
So I've been considering revising my requirement for weapon agnostic and changing it to "mostly" weapon agnostic through the use of the Martial Versatility feat.
That would mean I would need to have the weapons be all in one weapon group. How does Martial Versatility function when selecting a weapon that's part of multiple weapon groups? Such as a Throwing Axe, Dagger, or Bardiche?
Also on a related topic, what weapon group is the Cutlass? It's landing in the light blades weapon group when I work on HeroLab but I can't find an official reference anywhere.
Monk of the Empty Hand.
Everything, weapons or not, is your weapon, which you can Flurry with.
Are you saying that, by dipping one level in Monk of the Empty Hand, a fighter could apply any single weapon specific feat he has (Improved Crit, Weapon Focus, etc) to EVERY weapon with Martial Versatility? Or at least, every weapon within the light/one handed/two handed categories?
That seems broken...
Not any specific feat.
Those don't fly with "weapon agnostic".
You simply treat all weapons, as improvised weapons, for which you take no penalties for using, and can Flurry with.
So, if whether it's a Katana, or a Crowbar, it's all treated the same.
Presumably that means if you find a couple of +5 short swords they don't work any better than chair legs?
That's almost weapon-atheistic TWF...
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