Does that make sense at least?It makes sense. In short, you're too gun-shy to risk trying again.
Precisely.
And I'm not afraid to admit that is the case. There's a saying in this country: "Brændt barn skyr ilden", which literally translates to "burnt child shuns the fire".
I've stuck my hand in that particular hornets nest one too many times and now, every time someone tells me "come on, stick your hand in this nest over here, it's a bee's hive, not a hornets nest, and it's full of honey, I promise," I'm just not willing to risk it again.
That is not the same thing as telling everyone else they can't do it if they want to. It's just me saying I'm not willing to do so, myself.
Not a fan of them.
The last one we ever had was a dude who got burned and died from it. We forgot about him in a ditch somewhere and kept on adventuring.
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Now we're getting somewhere, because I actually happen to agree with you on this.
Awesome! Hive fives all around! :D
What I am disputing is not that this is the right thing way to go about this. Because it absolutely and definitely is. Unquestioningly so, in my opinion.
What I am challenging is that this is how it is actually done in many game groups and by many GMs.
I'm not saying GMPCs are a bad idea because bad. Dixit. No further reason required.
What I'm saying is that GMPCs are bad because all my experience with the issue leads me to conclude that the solution you are outlining above is never successfully implemented.
That's fair. I think it's important to be able to achieve meta-cognition out of game as well. It's obvious that you've had poor experiences by lots of GMs who have done a very poor job of handling this sort of thing. Understandable, though that is, because experience is a thing we have only just after we needed it. However, it's obviously burned you and I understand the concern.
The thing is, we could truly replace your bad experiences with GMPCs with...most anything. I've seen a lot of stinker GMs and honestly I've got a big list of my own red flags and pet peeves that are at best early warning or caution signs and at worst auto-disconnect programs (if a GM says something insane like "psionics is OP" or "wizards need help having fun next to martials" it's probably a good sign that I should probably avoid eye-contact and possible contamination).
But when I say it could be anything, I mean we could just replace GMPC with:
- Paladins
- Clerics
- Dungeon crawls
- Heavy roleplay games
- Roleplay-lite games
- Overland adventures
- Aquatic adventures
- Planar adventures
- Dragons
- Familiars
- Bound outsiders
- Romances
- NPCs
- Playing in a group with the GM's lover
Really, anything that has just been consistently screwed up over and over for you in the game. I've seen this happen with a lot of people. I've had players join my games who all but refused to try to flesh out their characters who have any interest in any NPCs because they just KNEW that if they showed any affection for an NPC or had siblings or a family or whatever, it was just going to be used against them by the GM or tortured or killed or something. It led them to believe that you can't have PCs with families and just shouldn't. No matter what it was a bad idea and the temptation for the GM to bring ruin was just too great and it couldn't be done well.
Sound familiar? It should. Because, well, this is just kind of par for the course. We could replace "NPCs who mean something" with "elves". God, elves, those bastards. Why doesn't everyone hate them? They're horrible in every game you've ever played in. Always obnoxious, stuck up, no redeeming qualities, holier than thou, backstabbing, with like twelve more levels than everyone else and their inclusion means the GM is going to make you quote passages from the Silmarillion if you want to get XP this session. :P
No, this is not an attack on you. Or anyone else.
S'cool. I haven't felt attacked at any point in the thread. I've mostly been content to poke holes in logical problems (it's like bubble wrap, except instead of little pops you get the suffering screams of Grognards, which are like momma's lullabies). :D
That is not the same thing as telling everyone else they can't do it if they want to. It's just me saying I'm not willing to do so, myself.
A funny fact...I actually don't have GMPCs very often. The last time I had a dedicated GMPC it was at the request of the party (and each time previously). The current campaign I'm running has lots of what I would define as GMPCs but they didn't start out that way initially. Two are memberd of the religious order that the Paladin is part of, two are the mothers of the party face, one is the Paladin's squire and other PC's adoptive sister, and the last is one of the PC's bizarre adopted lover follower thing that would double as reason for psychological profiling.
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But when I say it could be anything, I mean we could just replace GMPC with:
- Paladins
- Clerics
- Dungeon crawls
- Heavy roleplay games
- Roleplay-lite games
- Overland adventures
- Aquatic adventures
- Planar adventures
- Dragons
- Familiars
- Bound outsiders
- Romances
- NPCs
- Playing in a group with the GM's loverReally, anything that has just been consistently screwed up over and over for you in the game. I've seen this happen with a lot of people....
I think that is an extremely apposite comparison. I hadn't thought of it like that, but yes, this is a case of "swap this term for any other on the list". I've seen a lot of this as well.
But I still want to throw a thought out there for consideration: if this thread had been called "how do you feel about romances in your game?" I doubt it would have elicited quite so bitter comments as some of the ones we've seen in this thread. In fact, there is another thread in which that very topic is discussed and it's yet to become acrimonious (or at least that was the case the last time I looked in on it).
My point is that some topics simply get people more riled, pro or con, than others and apparently, GMPCs is one such area.
Anyway, it's a relief to finally see some kind of consensus, even if it's only between a few of us.
Thank you.
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... and their inclusion means the GM is going to make you quote passages from The Silmarillion ...Well, that at least is reasonable.
That's either sarcasm or Tolkein fanboy nonsense, because I read...a few hundred pages I think..of that, and it's pretty much the waterboarding of literature.
I've seen them run well (outstandingly so for a pbp where nobody knew for ages who was a PC and who wasn't) and I've seen them run badly. However, the most egregious example was a text-book paragon of physical superiority, better than most of the PCs at most things they could do with plot lines hanging off him like armour.
It had all the warning signs of an impending disaster until the only female player, playing the only female character decided 'stuff this' and that since he was the best example of manhood in the entire village, she would marry him.
Suddenly, there were no secrets, he became hen-pecked and was the butt of many a joke from the rest of the PCs. Suddenly, adventuring with him became fun but for none of the reasons the DM wanted.
He left without warning one night and, cursed by his jilted bride, we never saw his like again.
My thirty years of gaming haven't burned me; they've taught me never to underestimate our fellow players' ingenuity at overcoming problems set by our DMs.
This was great. Marked down as a favorite.
He had an immense physical advantage, but look at how fragile this dmpc was in the realm of social warfare. Glad you never saw his like again, but I am sure the stories and chuckles persisted long after his departure. What an example of ingenuity. I allow pcs to kill dmpcs if they like, sell them out, turn on them, sacrifice them to survive - dmpcs not being protected and all that, but this was just gold.
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That's either sarcasm or Tolkein fanboy nonsense, because I read...a few hundred pages I think..of that, and it's pretty much the waterboarding of literature.... and their inclusion means the GM is going to make you quote passages from The Silmarillion ...Well, that at least is reasonable.
U wot mate?
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That's either sarcasm or Tolkein fanboy nonsense...... and their inclusion means the GM is going to make you quote passages from The Silmarillion ...Well, that at least is reasonable.It was sarcasm. No one who doesn't like Tolkien (note the correct spelling) should have to deal with his work.
... because I read ... a few hundred pages I think ... of that, and it's pretty much the waterboarding of literature.Opinion noted and rejected. There's no accounting for taste.
I consider The Silmarillion by far the greatest literary creation of the 20th century.
Hahaha hahaha..... Wait! You're being serious?
Do you realize how much awesome literature has come out, there is no way you believe The Silmarrilion is the best book to come out in the last 115 years, I'm all for over exaggerations, but that seems.... excessive :-)
I consider The Silmarillion by far the greatest literary creation of the 20th century.
You should really read a wider variety of things. The Silmarillion is a fine piece of craftwork, but it really doesn't approach "literature" in quality.
I can count:-D
So which book in the last 15 years is better than The Silmarrilion :-)
So you're saying i'm right then?
since you can't name a book better then from the last 15 then according to your statement, my assertion of the last 115 is true and your lame attempt to insult my intelligence is just sad :-p
The assumption that you're better read than I am is extremely amusing, as is the idea that The Silmarillion is not "literature."I consider The Silmarillion by far the greatest literary creation of the 20th century.You should really read a wider variety of things. The Silmarillion is a fine piece of craftwork, but it really doesn't approach "literature" in quality.
Amusing perhaps. But not inappropriate. My background puts me well above 3 standard deviations of the general population in books read. So, I am comfortable that 99% of random people I talk to will have read less than me.
Not that that nessicarily holds true on these forums, it is a specialized group after all. But your statements about The Silmarillion pretty much confirmed it for me.
What about pretty please with Smurfs on top :-)
But not to worry I'm cool :-)
The assumption that you're better read than I am is extremely amusing, as is the idea that The Silmarillion is not "literature."I consider The Silmarillion by far the greatest literary creation of the 20th century.You should really read a wider variety of things. The Silmarillion is a fine piece of craftwork, but it really doesn't approach "literature" in quality.Amusing perhaps. But not inappropriate. My background puts me well above 3 standard deviations of the general population in books read. So, I am comfortable that 99% of random people I talk to will have read less than me.
Not that that nessicarily holds true on thee forums, it is a specialized group after all. But your statements about The Silmarillion pretty much confirmed it for me.
In other words, because your tastes and mine don't coincide, and yours are obviously superior, your conclusion is valid. You go right on thinking that.
From what you've revealed as to the extent of your erudition, your assumption is incorrect.
Oh, and ... if you're so exhaustively well read, you should probably learn how to spell "necessarily." It undermines your credibility just a bit.
Your need to correct other's spelling is telling. Additionally, I didn't draw my conclusion in the manner you allude to. I would appreciate it if you would not depict my process falsely.
Please be nice and respect everyone's opinions. Pretty please, in fact. ^_^
I've been enjoying this thread and would like it to stay open a little longer. We're making progress, even!
We are?
Even when some helpful advice or enlightenment is shared it is quickly drowned out by the endless back and forth of the pro or anti GMPC bickering.I have begun to suspect people like... no they love arguing with each other.
I say!
What we need is a good old fashioned Fox Hunt!
Alas we've been holed up in this cabin in the Tickwood and good Lord Foxglove hasn't returned with the supplies he promise.
I fear soon we'll have to brave the woods.... My word!... Are those hounds I hear.....
What about pretty please with Smurfs on top :-)
But not to worry I'm cool :-)
It's also possible my attachment to The Silmarillion is in some measure emotional, because it has tremendous sentimental value to me, involving my ex-wife.
(That's really amazing: Someone was able to hack my account and put a smurf as my avatar. I've never had an avatar here in all the time I've been about.)
That's cool, I didn't mean to upset you, I take it all back if it means that much to you :-)
All good here :-)
What about pretty please with Smurfs on top :-)
But not to worry I'm cool :-)
It's also possible my attachment to The Silmarillion is in some measure emotional, because it has tremendous sentimental value to me, involving my ex-wife.
(That's really amazing: Someone was able to hack my account and put a smurf as my avatar. I've never had an avatar here in all the time I've been about.)
the Smurf! It's spreading!!
That's cool, I didn't mean to upset you, I take it all back if it means that much to you :-)
All good here :-)
Not really upset, so no problem, here.
I really don't understand where the smurf has come from.
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I was referring to The Alkenstarian and Ashiel's dialogue up above. As for the drowning out, all I can do is try to offer a calming word.
You're right about the arguing, though. ^_^
Thank you, Kalindlara. That was nice of you to say.
I think there's probably no way to stop the bickering at this stage, because by now, it looks like it has literally become a matter of not backing down at any cost for many on both sides. But if at least a few of us can come to some kind of understanding, then yes, I still think that's progress and I agree with you.
It would be nice to see the thread stay open, but if it continues its tailspin the way it is now, I don't think it'll be long before an admin pulls the trigger and shuts it down.
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That's cool, I didn't mean to upset you, I take it all back if it means that much to you :-)
All good here :-)
Not really upset, so no problem, here.
I really don't understand where the smurf has come from.
It's not a hack, it's something the forum devs put into this forum a long time ago.
Any time a post contains the word smurf a randomized smurf avatar shows up on that post, overriding the selected avatar.
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War is Hell my friends!
The things I've seen... the Mutants I've decapitated....
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Well, if someone would just tell me why I have smurfs as my avatar, when I've never had an avatar here before, I'd be grateful.
What forum would I report this in?
The Dept of excessive Smurfyness :-)
It's not a hack, it's something the forum devs put into this forum a long time ago.
Any time a post contains the word ... a randomized ... avatar shows up on that post, overriding the selected avatar.
Oh, OK.
Thanks, kyrt-ryder! You're smurf-tastic!
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The Dept of excessive Smurfyness :-)
Thanks. That was extremely helpful. :)
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I have begun to suspect people like... no they love arguing with each other.
Dance for my amusement!
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Jaelithe, you've been around a lot. Is this really your first smurf encounter? That's quite impressive.
On topic, I've never played with GMPCs, so I have no experience on which to base opinions to share.
The random avatar selection for that post was right on!The Dept of excessive Smurfyness :-)Thanks. That was extremely helpful. :)
It was. :)
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I love that my pointing out how overrated the Silmarillion was derailed the thread that hard.
...and axe threat or not, I stand by my statement. I loved the Hobbit and even LotR, but I venture a guess that 9/10 Silmarillion fans would never had made it twenty pages into that cure for insomnia if it had a different last name on the cover.
If I wanted to read hundreds of pages of geneologies, complicated definitions for creature types, and only about seven pages of actual plot..you know, I was about to say I'd open up the Old Testament, but even Leviticus has more story in it than Silmarillion.
Of course, everyone has different preferences in literature. I like plot.
Of course, everyone has different preferences in literature.And, of course, everyone thinks their taste is superior and more discerning.
When I said "greatest," I didn't necessarily mean best-written, most-coherent, or even most popular (because the reviews when it came out were hit-or-miss, actually, for reasons you and others have mentioned). I was referring more to the significance of revealing so much of Tolkien's legendarium, and how it's representative of the manner in which his work still overshadows fantasy.
That is somewhat akin to saying that McDonald's the greatest restaurant of the 20th century because of how wide spread its impact has been on the industry. Perhaps true, but the statement needs a fair bit of unpacking to make any sense at all.
it's
It's not normally my bag, but your use of this word is misspelled.
I love how we got 12... 13 Smurfs on one page :-)
Smurftastic work everyone :-)
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This conversation, without the g@#$@#$@#$ s****s, is sort of like the GMPC discussion .. everyone has their opinion, and some of them are very strongly held. Then the conversation falls apart as we pick on silly crap like spelling.
Kalindlara is right, we were actually starting to have more of a dialogue and less of who-is-right-and-you-are-wrong. If I wanted to watch people tell each other that their choices in entertainment is wrong, I'd frequent coffee shops near colleges.
This conversation, without the g@#$@#$@#$ s****s, is sort of like the GMPC discussion .. everyone has their opinion, and some of them are very strongly held. Then the conversation falls apart as we pick on silly crap like spelling.
Kalindlara is right, we were actually starting to have more of a dialogue and less of who-is-right-and-you-are-wrong. If I wanted to watch people tell each other that their choices in entertainment is wrong, I'd frequent coffee shops near colleges.
That is an unfair characterization of college coffee shops ;)