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So my question is, can investigators cast spells (by drinking extracts) that effect their allies? For example would a haste potion effect just the Investigator or the party as well.
The investigator alchemy says that the potions are bound to their creator, which could mean that they cant give their potions away, or that the spell itself is changed and it only effects them.
Relevant investigator text:
Like an alchemist, an investigator prepares his spells by mixing ingredients and a tiny fraction of his own magical power into a number of extracts, and then effectively casts the spell by drinking the extract. These extracts have powerful effects, "but they are also bound to their creator". Extracts behave like spells in potion form, and as such their effects can be dispelled by dispel magic and similar effects, using the investigator's level as the caster level.
The Alchemist has a specific paragraph that notes " the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist"
But that is not in the investigator class. So is this an oversight, or does the Investigator have the ability to buff his allies?
It seems to me that they should be able to support their team as the role section of the investigator says "They serve as advisors and support for their adventuring parties, "
bonus question: Does drinking a normal haste potion effect your allies as well (made from a craft alchemy)?
From what I understand, the Investigator's ability to create extracts is functionally identical to the alchemists, having the same restrictions. Meaning it functions like a potion, except capable of holding spells of higher level than a potion normally could.
This means they are all single target. They also have the additional restriction that no one but the alchemist can receive the benefits of the extract unless they possess the Infusion discovery.
Bottom line: No, extracts affect only the person who drinks them and only the alchemist/investigator can drink them unless they possess the infusion discovery.
Your extracts will not affect anyone but yourself, unless you take the infusion discovery. Its the entire point of the discovery.
As for potions, they never affect anyone except the person drinking the potion.
Ciaran Barnes wrote: Your extracts will not affect anyone but yourself, unless you take the infusion discovery. Its the entire point of the discovery.
As for potions, they never affect anyone except the person drinking the potion.
If I took the infusion discovery would i be able to actually cast spells on allies like haste? I thought exactly what you said originally, but looking at the infusion talent, it doesn't seem to affect the spell itself. To buff an ally they would have to drink the potion I brewed for them right?
I can either buff allies by drinking my own potions or not, but I don't think the infusion ability helps either way.
Infusion: Benefit: When the alchemist creates an extract, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power. The extract created now persists even after the alchemist sets it down. As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist’s daily extract slots. An infused extract can be imbibed by a non-alchemist to gain its effects.
Infusions still only affect the person drinking them. The advantage of the Infusion discovery is that they can now be used by someone other than the investigator/alchemist.
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Claxon wrote: Bottom line: No, extracts affect only the person who drinks them and only the alchemist/investigator can drink them unless they possess the infusion discovery.
Seems like a huge error in the investigator class, that it never has this paragraph :
Although the alchemist doesn't actually cast spells, he does have a formulae list that determines what extracts he can create. An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formulae list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so). An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist. An alchemist can draw and drink an extract as a standard action. The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level.
Furthermore the Investigator is supposed to be a support class, as noted in the role, but with the potions only effecting themselves, they have no support capabilities sin combat!
Alchemist wording:
Alchemists are not only masters of creating mundane alchemical substances such as alchemist's fire and smokesticks, but also of fashioning magical potion-like extracts in which they can store spell effects. In effect, an alchemist prepares his spells by mixing ingredients into a number of extracts, and then “casts” his spells by drinking the extract. When an alchemist creates an extract or bomb, he infuses the concoction with a tiny fraction of his own magical power—this enables the creation of powerful effects, but also binds the effects to the creator.
Note it specifically mentions the effects our bound to the creator.
Investigator wording:
Like an alchemist, an investigator prepares his spells by mixing ingredients and a tiny fraction of his own magical power into a number of extracts, and then effectively casts the spell by drinking the extract. These extracts have powerful effects, but they are also bound to their creator. Extracts behave like spells in potion form, and as such their effects can be dispelled by dispel magic and similar effects, using the investigator's level as the caster level.
The key difference is that the investigator wording only says that the extracts themselves are bound to their creator, (can't pass them out).
Has anyone bought the book? If so could they comment if this is a "copy paste" error or if in the book its the same? I would buy the book if this was fixed, but likely not if these type of errors are rampant.
I think the investigator left the part out about not effecting their allies because they tried to make a support class
Role: Investigators live to solve mysteries and find inventive ways to get out of jams. They serve as advisors and support for their adventuring parties, but can take center stage when knowledge and cunning are needed. No slouches in battle, they know how to make surprise attacks and use inspiration to bring those attacks home.
I'm not sure where you are quoting from, but here is the investigator alchemist section from the PRD.
Quote: When an investigator mixes an extract, he infuses the chemicals and reagents in the extract with magic siphoned from his own magical aura. An extract immediately become inert if it leaves the investigator’s possession, reactivating as soon as it returns to his keeping—an investigator cannot normally pass out his extracts for allies to use. Investigators are not intended to allow others to use their extracts without using the infusion discovery.
The Advanced Class Guide Adventure Path is notorious for having numerous typos, editing mistakes and omissions as a result of being rushed through editing to be ready in time for Paizo-con. The errata process is in full swing, and should (hopefully) be released in the not too distant future. While I can't recommend buying the ACG hardcover unless it's the second printing, you could instead buy the ACG PDF version - Paizo automatically updates the PDFs with errata, so that way you can have the flawed copy now and update to the improved version for free as soon as the errata is released.
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DragonFire_13 wrote: Furthermore the Investigator is supposed to be a support class, as noted in the role, but with the potions only effecting themselves, they have no support capabilities sin combat! The Investigator supports his party by his knowledge and skills, including trapfinding. Magic is not the sole definition of support.
Dragon Fire, ignore the fluff text that says investigators support their allies. It's fluff, not a description of their mechanical abilities.
Outside of that fluff, do you think there is any actual reason to believe that it should work?
Claxon wrote: Claxon wrote: Bottom line: No, extracts affect only the person who drinks them and only the alchemist/investigator can drink them unless they possess the infusion discovery. This is the truth, it's not an oversight and it isn't a problem at all.
Claxon wrote: Dragon Fire, ignore the fluff text that says investigators support their allies. It's fluff, not a description of their mechanical abilities.
Outside of that fluff, do you think there is any actual reason to believe that it should work?
Fair point here's why I thought the potions acted exactly like the spells themselves, and are not limited to themselves.
No where in the investigator class does it say the effect of the spell from drinking the potion is any different than casting the spell itself.
(I don't know how to do the fancy quote so I'm just copy pasting)
"Like an alchemist, an investigator prepares his spells by mixing ingredients and a tiny fraction of his own magical power into a number of extracts, and then effectively casts the spell by drinking the extract. These extracts have powerful effects, but they are also bound to their creator. Extracts behave like spells in potion form, and as such their effects can be dispelled by dispel magic and similar effects, using the investigator's level as the caster level."
Behaves just like spells but in potion form.
However the investigator can't pass out his spells unless he has the infusion discovery, as noted here:
"When an investigator mixes an extract, he infuses the chemicals and reagents in the extract with magic siphoned from his own magical aura. An extract immediately become inert if it leaves the investigator's possession, reactivating as soon as it returns to his keeping—an investigator cannot normally pass out his extracts for allies to use."
Relevant infusion text
"Infusion: When the alchemist creates an extract, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power. The extract created now persists even after the alchemist sets it down. As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist's daily extract slots. An infused extract can be imbibed by a non-alchemist to gain its effects."
So with the infusion discover to me it seems like the potions would function exactly like spells, just in a bottle.
Since the investigator alchemy only constraint as noted below again, are that the extracts are bound to their creator.
"Like an alchemist, an investigator prepares his spells by mixing ingredients and a tiny fraction of his own magical power into a number of extracts, and then effectively casts the spell by drinking the extract. These extracts have powerful effects, but they are also bound to their creator."
Now with infusion the potions are exactly like spells and now longer bound to their creator.
I believe the only way to say that spells that an investigator casts are any different than the actual spells are to quote the alchemy class, and assume there is a error in the investigator class.
Extracts and Infusions are not spells. Potions are also an entirely different thing. Alchemists and Investigators are not spell casters and do not cast spells, they have nothing to do with spells. They create extracts or infusions.
An extract can only be used by the creator. An infusion can be passed out to someone else to drink. It does not allow a drinker to cast spells or pass on effects to someone else.
DragonFire_13 wrote: Claxon wrote: Dragon Fire, ignore the fluff text that says investigators support their allies. It's fluff, not a description of their mechanical abilities.
Outside of that fluff, do you think there is any actual reason to believe that it should work?
Fair point here's why I thought the potions acted exactly like the spells themselves, and are not limited to themselves.
No where in the investigator class does it say the effect of the spell from drinking the potion is any different than casting the spell itself.
To use your same logic, no where in the class does it say that potions, which extracts are, operate any differently when produced by an alchemist or an investigator. The investigator does not change the extract rules introduced by the alchemist and the alchemist rules are very clear on this matter.
Note: Extracts wrote: An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist Infusions wrote: When the alchemist creates an extract, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power. The extract created now persists even after the alchemist sets it down. As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist’s daily extract slots. An infused extract can be imbibed by a non-alchemist to gain its effects This is the exact wording. It does not say that you can split one infusion. Only that someone other than the alchemist (the creator) of the infusion can drink it. It alters nothing else.
Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
How do you reason about the wording "Extracts behave like ... potion[s]?"
Even an infused extract still has the potions limitation to a single target.
Quote: Like an alchemist, an investigator prepares his spells by mixing ingredients and a tiny fraction of his own magical power into a number of extracts, and then effectively casts the spell by drinking the extract. These extracts have powerful effects, but they are also bound to their creator. Extracts behave like spells in potion form, and as such their effects can be dispelled by dispel magic and similar effects, using the investigator's level as the caster level. Extracts behave like potions, with some exceptions.
Look up potion rules.
Quote: A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Potions vary incredibly in appearance. Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed. A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures or objects. The price of a potion is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 50 gp. If the potion has a material component cost, it is added to the base price and cost to create. Table: Potions gives sample prices for potions created at the lowest possible caster level for each spellcasting class. Note that some spells appear at different levels for different casters. The level of such spells depends on the caster brewing the potion.
Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn't get to make any decisions about the effect—the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).
The person applying an oil is the effective caster, but the object is the target
Potions only affect the imbiber.
Done. The chain of rules is complete.
Extracts function like potions (with exceptions for spell level that can be placed in them and who can drink them). Potions only affect the drinker.
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Ok Thanks everybody for the input!
I have concluded that the Investigator alchemy is supposed to be identical to the alchemist.
If you found this thread because you were as confused as I was, I recommend you read the alchemy from the alchemist class, as it is clearer and more detailed.
Conclusion summary:
Extracts behave like potions, and as such they only cast the spell on the drinker. They are more powerful though as you can make choices for spells like resit energy, and can contain higher level spells.
It is a standard action to draw and drink a potion for an alchemist/investigator.
Thanks!
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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Not wanting to put the cat too far amongst the pigeons, but there are a number of alchemist/investigator spells which explicitly effect multiple targets, communal darkvision will do as an example.
So, how does that work then?
Is the vial passed round? How many can drink from it in one action? Do the other characters have to spend an action?
Does the investigator drink it and then touch recipients?
If the caster has infusion can someone else drink it and then touch recipients?
Darrell Impey UK wrote: Not wanting to put the cat too far amongst the pigeons, but there are a number of alchemist/investigator spells which explicitly effect multiple targets, communal darkvision will do as an example.
So, how does that work then?
Is the vial passed round? How many can drink from it in one action? Do the other characters have to spend an action?
Does the investigator drink it and then touch recipients?
If the caster has infusion can someone else drink it and then touch recipients?
Now THAT is a question for FAQ.
There's an SKR comment on that somewhere. Don't have the time to dig it up right now, but it is out there. Maybe someone else can find it?
Yes, communal spells as infusions are weird. Drinking an infusion doesn't grant you the ability to pass on the effect, only gives you the effect. As far as I know, you need to drink the entire potion/extract/infusion for it to take effect, so you can't pass around the bottle either.
However, this does not make communal infusions worthless, as there are tumor familiars that CAN deliver extracts/infusions as touch spells. However, there's also a chance that communal extracts do not work at all (they may need to be infusions).
Master and familiar need to be in contact, master "casts spell"/drinks extract/infusion (alchemist's extract and mutagen counts as spell for the purpose of spell share and deliver touch spells) and then send out familiar to touch, nothing says that a familiar can't touch multiple targets to grant the effect of communal extracts. However, extracts/infusions like haste isn't deliverd by touch and therefore can't be delivered this way.
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Also, here's SKR's comment: link Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Officially...
Alchemist extracts only affect the drinker. You can't split it up.
As to why these spells are on the alchemist list at all:
(1) You'll note that the regular alch extract list includes water breathing, which is a communal-type spell, so there's a precedent for it.
(2) The alchemist isn't limited in the number of spells he can learn. So, if he wants to learn the communal version of an extract, he can do so--unlike a sorcerer, he doesn't have a fixed limit to his number of extracts known, and learning it doesn't keep him from learning other extracts later.
(3) Many of these communal spells are on the sor/wiz list, and the basic spell is on the alchemist list, so if Spell A is an extract and a wizard spell, and Communal Spell A is a wizard spell, Communal Spell A should be a extract as well. Even if it's not an efficient use of the alchemist's extract slots. Especially since an alchemist can translate a wiz spell into an alch extract if it's on the extract). Basically, if an alchemist never bothered to learn spider climb, but he finds a spellbook or formula book with communal spider climb, he should be able to make use of it, even though he probably has better options for his level 3 extracts.
Unofficially...
If your GM is okay with it, there's no reason why an alchemist with the infusion discovery couldn't make an infusion of a communal extract, allowing multiple people to sip from it and apportion its effects.
But, just like kissing sailors, that can spread diseases, so be careful.
Would also like to add Alchemist wrote: An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formulae list...
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