Ok, little about myself. Long time D&D/PF player and GM. Though I admit I am not the greatest GM, I like to think that I’m not horrible and that I am improving. I have played quite a few PFS scenarios in PbP and it has some aspects that I like. Time to think about your actions and/or words. Some people are too shy to do much RP in person, but behind the shield of the computer screen they will let loose a bit more.
I have a semi-old concept that I would like to try and revive from back in my 2ndEd days. In my local area, I have found some but not enough to get a home game going. Though I am still hopeful about getting into a long term PbP campaign, I am considering starting one myself. I have tried a few PbP and been very disappointed when they died-out or progressed so slow that I gave up.
So here’s what I’m going to do. I won’t and I’m not asking any players to commit to a long term campaign yet. I will and I will be asking the players to commit to a short section (like old time short module length or less). We [i]will[/] finish that. If at that time, everyone agrees the experiment is a failure, we can the whole project. If most think it is worth progressing, we will replace the folks that decide it isn’t for them. Then run another section.
Rinse and repeat.
If we get a stable group and everyone is enjoying it, it will keep going to moderate-campaign length.
I am proposing house rules for this campaign. Most of them will deal with magic and magic items.
* Permanent Magic Items – Much more difficult and expensive to make, so rarely found. However, you can find or have made a sword that will have say 10 charges of Keen on it.
* The Big Six (+X weapon, shield, armor, cloak of resistance, mental stat headband, physical stat belt) – The items and the spells that duplicate those effects will mostly not exist.
*Some types of magic are still possible, but much more difficult than normal for standard PF.
*These include spells that summon/call creatures, effect time, effect space. So spells like Summon Natures Ally, Haste, and Dimension Door will be difficult. Not because I don’t like them or think they are overpowered. There is an in-game story reason for that difficulty that eventually the PC’s might actually be able to effect if they want to do so.
*How those are difficult is not set in stone. My first thought is to just increase the spell level. But I’ve also considered requiring a caster level check or something like that.
* Normally only for very low level and harmless magics with limited choices, black market or commission for most anything else.
* Low level cure and condition removals are usually sold by benevolent churches.
* Scrolls wands of low level utility and defensive spells might be sold at small shops (beware fakes).
* But higher level and offensive stuff is tough to find for sale.
* I like weird custom magic items, so expect to eventually find them.
* Hobgoblins and half-hobgoblins are very common and available for PC’s.
* Half-Elves (including half-drow) run the nearby aggressive empire.
* Half-elves do exist outside the empire, but are always viewed with suspicion that they may be agents of the empire. Because that empire is ‘known’ for doing just that.
* Halflings, Gnomes, Fetchlings, Strix, and Wayangs are actually pretty dang common in this independent city-state.
* The elemental races are known but not common in the area.
* There actually is an in-game reason to allow weird races and builds. * I won’t let you just make-up your own race, but I might be willing to work with a player to create something.
The following 3 are not because I don’t like them or think they are overpowered. There is an in-game story reason for their absence that eventually the PC’s might actually be able to effect if they want to do so.
* Orcs, Half-Orcs, Aasimar, Tiefling, samuri, ninja, animal-ish races (like Kitsune and Nagaji), oriental type weapons - are extremely rare, not available for PC’s without a very good in-game justification.
* Elves and Drow are legendary/non-existent, not available for PC’s.
* Firearms and fireworks are legendary/non-existent, not available for PC’s.
* The campaign will begin with the PC’s as low level agents for a semi-shadowy organization that benevolently (mostly) protects an independent city-state from some types of threats. But oddly not from other threats.
* I will be creating a PrC (or maybe 2) for the Grey Cloaks. It will not be required for the PC’s to take but it will be available. It will probably be difficult to advance very high in the organization without the PrC. But maybe not all or even none of the PC’s will want to advance in the organization.
* Any PC’s are expected to be able to work as a team. In other words, you as players need to find a way to work out why both a bandit and healer are in the group on the same side.
* There will be combat, but a build that is only for combat will not be accepted. In-game, the Grey Cloaks would not accept someone that can only fight. A variety of capabilities are required for recruitment. Out-of-character, I think one of the things that kills some PbP is characters that don’t seem to have anything to do for long periods of the story so they stop participating.
* Paladin’s probably won’t fit in too well with the Grey Cloaks. The code/oath will tend to give a bit of trouble with the organization. I won’t out right forbid it, but it will be very difficult to make it work.
* There is a sharp divide between arcane and divine magic and sources of power. No Mystic Theurge. Any divine class that takes levels in an arcane class will not be granted any divine power. If an arcane caster decided to become a divine class, he would first be required to undergo a ceremony to purge the arcane power, before being granted any divine power.
* There will only be a small number of deities available, though I am not yet set on exactly which ones. Nethys certainly won’t be in the list.
* Churches very much disapprove of arcane casters. Especially prepared/book arcane casters. Spontaneous casters have at least have the excuse that the gods gave them the powers, but they should be using/improving them. But book casters have no excuse. They are actively going out and trying to learn that filthy arcane magic.
* No one knows if only power-mad paranoids become powerful arcane casters or if repeated exposure to the powerful arcane magic does that to the person. But it seems to be almost universal (because everyone says so).
* Organized churches do tend to give directions/requests/orders to their followers. Sometimes that will be in conflict with the players desires or job.
* There is a major schism in the ranks of the divine casters that goes across most of the deities.
* The Vnutri say that the gods gave you the body you were born with. So that is the only thing you can change as yours. The only ‘correct’ magic is that which affects only the body you were given. Spells that effect the environment are unacceptable. So Bull’s Strength is ok, but blade barrier is not.
* The Okolie say that the gods gave you the body you were born with. So the god’s must think it is the way it is supposed to be. The only ‘correct’ magic is which effect the imperfect world around you. A Blade Barrier is ok, but Bull’s Strength is not.
* Oddly, neither group has a good reason why the gods grant spells that are not ‘correct’ to the other groups followers.
* Healing magic is acceptable to both groups since that restores the body to its beginning state.
* Some spells could be interpreted either way and could be permissible for either group (if you talk fast enough). Detect Undead could be making your eyes capable of seeing necromantic energies (Vnutri) or it could be making undead glow for you (Okolie).
* There probably are some people that think both sides of schism are full of (something) but they are keeping their mouths shut and heads down for some reason.
* I don’t allow divine casters without a deity. You have to pick one and stick by its tenants.
So let me know what you think and if you would be interested.
I could get into playing a sneaky fetchling sorcerer, I think. Kissing up to each of the different divine orders, but really not giving a flip about either one of their rules personally.
My only worry with the low magic world would be if we made it to mid levels, trying to actually get a spell to affect an enemy as without enhancement items, the spell DCs are going to really struggle. If we make it that far, some minor thinking with the enemies saves would probably to make it a smooth transition, IMHO.
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My only worry with the low magic world would be if we made it to mid levels, trying to actually get a spell to affect an enemy as without enhancement items, the spell DCs are going to really struggle. If we make it that far, some minor thinking with the enemies saves would probably to make it a smooth transition, IMHO.
It is true a sorc wouldn't have charisma enhancing item, but the target wouldn't have the dex/con/wis enhancing item or a cloak of resistance. My (admittedly limited) play testing shows little actual difference in results. I didn't check it at really high levels yet, but that is the only place I would predict a significant change. You would almost have to build so you have your ability high enough to cast your highest level spells.
That's a good point.
From a crunch standpoint, what sort of point buy are you thinking or are you considering some other method of stat generation?
Your scenario sounds good to me. I love the idea of giving the team a short adventure with no promises, which could stretch into a longer run, if things go well. Too many times, people just get overwhelmed early and abandon ship...if there is a clear end point, that could keep interest high.
I'd be up for a run, I think.
I'm dotting for the interest. I'd like to see some specific guidelines for character creation however.
I'm interested. This would be my first PbP on these forums, but I've played pathfinder and D&D 3.5 for many years.
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From a crunch standpoint, what sort of point buy are you thinking or are you considering some other method of stat generation?
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As yet, undecided. If there is enough interest, I will have to spend some time world building before I'm ready to start.
Generally speaking, I usually prefer lower point buys but I know most people prefer high. So I usually end up compromising on about a 20 point buy.Probably start about 3rd level though. They Grey Cloaks wouldn't really consider recruiting someone until they have proved themselves.
Have you given any thought to what sort of missions the Grey cloaks might have to undertake? I could see all kinds of interesting things like infiltration, sabotage, kidnapping, etc.
Just one question. What about the spells that "duplicate" the item effects?
Such as Greater Magic Weapon, or Eagles Splendor? Would they be gone, too?
If not, some problems may persist, if yes, then many tools of these casters will be gone, without compensation. ...
Yes, the greater magic weapon and eagles splendor would be gone. Two reasons.
First: If you leave them in, then in my play testing it seemed that everyone expected every caster to spend all their slots to duplicate the magic items that were no longer present. Completely defeating the purpose of getting rid of the magic items and making all spellcasters into identical buff bots.Second: I think casters need at least a little bit of a nerf in the world I'm building. Since their won't be as many magic items, almost the only way you can do some things or deal with some situations is to have a caster on hand. So that gives them a big leg up in their relative desirability and power. So some things are needed to bring them back down.
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Also, I feel that this might lead to a different kind of problem.E.g. a Brawler / Monk is less dependent on items, same as with many non-humanoid creatures that usually don't wear enhancement items/resistance cloaks or stuff like Druid Wild-Shaping into specific forms to get their natural attacks would not be affected.
Same with non-humanoid enemies Special Attacks. Their DC's are based on their stats, and may prove hard to deal with for a party without the boni from belts/cloaks.And stuff that has significant Damage Reduction the party will find itself unable to bypass properly could also pose a problem. ...
Yes, I agree there may be problems with some types of builds. After each 'section' of plot, we would have to decide as a group what kinds of adjustments are necessary/workable.
Group would want to plan a little more carefully to handle things like damage reduction when it does come up. Instead of just struggling and saving up for the +4 sword of doom, they might want to carry around an adamantine dagger, cold iron mace, and some silver arrows.
Also, as I said. Things that don't typically use gear I would have to adjust their equivalent CR up a few notches. So they won't be encountered as soon. I'm ok with that. I think dire polar bear should be a moderately dangerous challenge.
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All in all, I see what you are trying to do, if only because I run a low-magic campaign for a group as GM once.I am not really interested in playing myself, but I feel you should consider very carefully what you change and what you allow. ...
Agreed. Also this is something of an experiment to see if the system works.
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Ultimately, it may be better to almost do away with magic in your world in general, and make it hard or costly to aquire any sort of arcane or divine power to use(for example by making EACH relevant class into a prestige class with requirement Knowledge(Arcana respective Religion) 5 ranks...that way everybody(including NPC's) has to start out without magic, and IF they decide to go with magic, it will be very costly and weak compared to their level, with the better deal being to keep going with what they started as. And then there's no reason to weaken it further, obviously, while almost nobody in the world will be a spellcaster, and magic items may be in existance normally, but supply and demand dictate that such a belt will be incredibly expensive and nobody save the greatest heroes or wealthiest nobles could afford it.)
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I actually looked at something very similar to this concept a long time ago. No one was interested in even giving it a try.
A fully appreciate any suggestions or critiques on the topic. I'm quite sure what I have proposed is not perfect and will need to be adjusted to keep it fun and workable for all.
Have you given any thought to what sort of missions the Grey cloaks might have to undertake? I could see all kinds of interesting things like infiltration, sabotage, kidnapping, etc.
Exactly those kinds of things. Also body guarding, rescue, item recovery, show of strength, etc...
At the beginnings, the PC's wouldn't have access to know everything about such a secretive organization. But it is well known that they don't interfere in every kind of threat to the city-state or certain individuals. But some they do chose to take action. It is a constant source of irritation to the city rulers that they don't know what they can count on the Grey Cloaks to do or not do.
Also it I well known that the Grey Cloaks really want to acquire a Torgant weapon from the empire for study. Think minor artifact.
They do have some of the less powerful Torg weapons. Torg are already considered horrifically vicious tools.
A thought just occurred to me, you might want to check out the old 3x game Iron Heroes. It was designed for low magic.
Sounds very interesting, low magic games have always been of interest to me.
maybe I'll come up with some sort of inquisitor or rogue/assassin character unless your opposed to either.
Not opposed to either as long as it's not the jerk-betray-the-party sort of evil.
But the campaign won't be starting for a while yet.
Hmm. This seems like it'd make a caster vastly more powerful than mundane characters, what with not relying on stats for defense and offense and everything.
Might make a wizard. Or something like that.
Edit: Have you thought about using d20 modern instead? It does low-magic a lot better than pathfinder, but is still d&d d20, in case you don't want to go with something like Iron Heroes.
I have considered other game systems. Generally speaking though, I have never been able to get enough people interested if it isn't at least based on PF.
Plus, I already have a lot of PF books.
Plus plus, I don't believe the rules require as much modification as some people believe. Part of the point in this experiment is to determine if I am correct or not in that opinion.
Actually, hadn't given much thought to bards. None of the group that did the trials with me like playing them. Hmm... will have to consider and probably play with some possibilities.
Well not never, but they would be much rarer anyway. Also, things like holy water would be even more worthwhile.
Meh, you can just have the wizard or cleric blast the incorporeal types. No reason to waste time with the water. Except at really low levels, of course.
So, if I choose to apply, I think an Herbalist Witch would fit well thematically. Since the cauldron hex is required at second level, how do you want to handle crafting?
Yeah, I think a witch will fit in pretty well.
Standard consumables like potions, scrolls, wands would be done as standard (except for the difficult spells). Not entirely sure about the others.
You don't need to apply at this time. It does seem like there is enough interest to get a game going. So I will start doing some development work to get things ready.
btw: I will probably use the old Karamakeos book for my world maps just so I don't have to invent something new.
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Meh, you can just have the wizard or cleric blast the incorporeal types. No reason to waste time with the water. Except at really low levels, of course.
Low magic, remember. Also, they don't do much as all their damage is halved as well except for force effects (so with the save, the do 1/4 damage...).
dotting for interest really cool ideas :)
Meh, you can just have the wizard or cleric blast the incorporeal types. No reason to waste time with the water. Except at really low levels, of course.Low magic, remember. Also, they don't do much as all their damage is halved as well except for force effects (so with the save, the do 1/4 damage...).
Just low magic items. Casters are unchanged.
Besides, Force effects, and (I might well be wrong about this, feel free to correct me) holy water deals half damage too. And 3d6/2 is better than 1d6. You're absolutely right that at level one or so, you want the holy water.
I've seen holy water ruled both ways. For my money, it does full damage if you pour it through the ghostly thing.
should we already do the character sheet?
No, don't bother yet. It will take a while for me to get ready. When it is ready, I will come back. I will be sure to give consideration to those that have already expressed interest.
Awesome. I've already found a profile pic here on the boards that resembles a fetchling!
I'd be interested. I like campaigns that make characters work to the height of their abilities, rather than just the accumlation of "stuff" When I GM, I tend to give more consideration to someone that uses their wits and abilities more than someone who pulls out the next gadget. So yeah, I'm definitely in on this.
If I missed my question, I apologize.
So how do Paladins, Rangers, etc work?
Paladins specifically and their potential holy weapon? Still functions as normal, altered?
Hi ElterAgo,
I'm afraid I don't have the time to join atm. But I couldn't help but notice your interest in low-magic Pathfinder, and I thought I'd share some thoughts based on my personal experience with a few low-magic 3e and Pathfinder games.
Forgive me if I am repeating anyone else (I kinda glanced through this thread), but there are a few things imo that need to be considered before starting a low-magic Pathfinder game. First, consider that Pathfinder, like 3e before it, is a game intentionally designed to require a certain progression of magic items in order to provide a play-balanced game. While certainly possible to reduce magic item availability, consider all the ramifications to other parts of the system: creatures and play balance, class play balance, etc. In my experience, eliminating the ability to purchase them actually quite ironically greatly weakens non-spell caster classes. For instance, I had an 11th-level ranger once with mundane weapons and armor and, when faced with a mere CR 3 creature he was completely helpless against it... because it was incorporeal and therefore immune to anything he could throw at it. The lesson here is to be very careful about what kinds of creatures you put up against your players... and if you want them to face such creatures as ghosts or other incorporeals or those with DR/magic, you need to consider special ways to enable the players to defeat such creatures (whether that's making house rules to modify such creature's defenses vs the mundane to make it possible to harm them, or by providing them with limited magic items needed to be retrieved on a quest to defeat them... maybe a story that can be uncovered by the players to reveal ways to convince the ghost to let go of this world and pass on to a happier afterlife, or whatever else you imagine).
Second, consider how this affects class balance, and ways to compensate for that loss. As mentioned, non-magic users will become significantly less effective, and therefore less appealing to players. I saw mentioned eliminating spells that reproduce magic item effects. This is limiting to spell casters, but not to their damage potential in combat (e.g. lightning bolt). But basically, and unless I missed a post that addresses this, I'm seeing reductions in power to everyone, with nothing in return. Consider implementing ways to bypass the constraints created by rarifying magic items (e.g. make special materials act like magic items in the mechanics, if not in their description... for instance, maybe mithril or adamantine damages incorporeals, just as cold iron damages fey without impediment in the RAW... e.g. incorporeals have DR/mithril instead of complete immunity to non-magical attacks). Otherwise, your players I fear will become frustrated when some of them have nothing to do but flee in key encounters (I speak from experience). And to compensate the loss of spells, perhaps for example magic users can gain more skill ranks. I've always felt that wizards should get more in particular anyway, considering their studious nature.
Finally, consider the work of implementing a magic system from another game system while retaining the rest of Pathfinder (as opposed to winging one yourself). I recommend Conan D20's magic system, which was specifically designed as a 3e-based D&D low-magic system (which should therefore, in theory, require minimal changes to work in Pathfinder). I'm actually a big fan of that system in general, yet understand that most people want to play Pathfinder. What's neat in Conan D20 is that while magic users only go up to 6th level, spells allow for a lot more creativity... for instance, poisons are more viable, so you can use weak spells like mage hand to throw hallucinogenic or toxic poisons at enemies for instance and actually be rather effective. You can really be more creative with the fewer spells you have in Conan, as opposed to the limitations in 3e/Pathfinder spell descriptions. They also get 8 skill ranks per level (like the rogue), with 3 required at minimum to be invested into Knowledge skills.
So, that's my 2 cents. Good luck. :)
If I missed my question, I apologize.
So how do Paladins, Rangers, etc work?
Paladins specifically and their potential holy weapon? Still functions as normal, altered?
Pet classes were not part of my play testing. May need some modifications there.
The paladin's divine weapon bond would need altered. Not sure exactly how. My first attempt was clearly too much of a nerf. So we would have to do something better than that.
But as I said, a paladin would be extremely difficult to play as part of the Grey Cloaks. I'm not seeing a lot of way to justify paladins restrictions with what the Grey Cloaks do fairly often.
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... good stuff ...
Yes, as GM I will have to be a bit more careful about what creatures I put in front of a low level group.
Having said that, I think it is silly for a high level character to not have some back-up weapons of the various types and materials. There already is a thing (ghost salt) to allow attacking incorporeal foes without a magic weapon. I probably would introduce a material to allow a melee weapon more than 1 hit against an incorporeal.
Similar to you could put silver weapon blanch on your bolts or buy a alchemical silver dagger for those lycans.
It is something of a balancing act. I am aware of that. Part of this is to determine where that balance point is at.
Yes, I had planned no reduction to the blasting spells. But personally, I think that is one of the least effective things a caster can usually do. They will have hindrances of some other types of spells, as stated above. However, the biggest power reduction for casters, is they now have to spend a fair amount of their effort staying alive since they don't have a bunch of magic items to take care of that.
There may need to be some other modifications to make it not turn into even more of 'glass cannon/rocket tag' than it already is. I wasn't seeing that in my little bit of play testing, but I do need to watch for it.
If I find this is not working as well as I hope, I will probably give another look at using some other game system for the story/world I am trying to create.
Very good. Sounds like you have a good handle on the situation. I just have a sensitive spot for low-magic 3e/Pathfinder since, on the one hand, I like low-magic fantasy, and on the other hand, I have not had good experiences with its 3e/Pathfinder adaption in the past. To be honest, the last GM I had who did this was rather reckless and random in his approach, and really didn't spend much time imho considering the ramifications at first. Even after he heeded some of my advice and modified things, it was still a frustrating experience. But with a more mindful GM at the helm, I believe it can certainly be done better, perhaps much better.
Again, good luck. :)
Edit: Btw, my 11th-level ranger example was from a 3e game where only the core rules were allowed... so, no weapon blanches, no ghost salt, nothing at all was made available really other than mundane and masterwork equipment. It was a sandbox-style game, so I intentionally set out to get mithril armor and other stuff... only to be told I had to find a mithril mine. I never found that mine. It was a ridiculous game, lol.
I love playing in Low magic item campains .It's surprising how well you can use your class features and what kind of party synergy you can come up with.
Have you lookd at the Unchained book yet? They have some great Ideas for Low magic/Items campains
Not yet, I have interest in both Unchained and the familiar book. But I hesitate to look at - and be tempted to buy - new books when I am already over my gaming budget. (I also really want some Hero Forge minis.) But I will probably get them next year.
Dotting for interest I think a brawler could do well in this setting and I've been wanting to make one for a while
I'll be looking forward to the Crunch when you decide to post.