| Arachnofiend |
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Divine Spellcasting
The Choir Singer receives his spells as divine inspiration from his deity, and his spells are considered divine rather than arcane for all purposes. This modifies the Bard's spells.
Religious Lore
A Choir Singer adds his class level to all Knowledge (Religion) skill checks and may make such skill checks untrained. He also receives a bonus equal to his charisma modifier on skill checks related to his deity. This replaces Bardic Knowledge.
Clerical Training
Though not a full Cleric, the Choir Singer is capable of casting some spells usually excluded from his list. At 2nd level and every 4 levels thereafter, the Choir Singer may select one spell from the Cleric spell list as a bonus spell. This spell must be of a level he can cast. This ability replaces Versatile Performance.
Domain
At 3rd level, the Choir Singer gains the use of a single domain granted by his deity. He gains the domain powers as if he had an effective Cleric level of his Bard level -2, and may use his charisma modifier instead of his wisdom modifier for the purposes of domain powers. He does not gain the use of the domain spells. This ability replaces Inspire Competence.
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So the "Choir Singer" basically exists for that reference. I think it's a neat idea though, and I think it makes for a good high-skilled party buffer where the Inquisitor is primarily a self-buffer.
| galahad2112 |
I like it (especially the thread title!)
The only thing that I'm not feeling is the Clerical Training feature. I get that you want to replace versatile performance, but the rate that the bard gains spells makes this awkward. The first iteration gets a 1st level spell, then the second grants a 2nd level (or lower) spell. Great so far. But the third time, he can get a 4th level spell. It's kind of incongruous. You may consider skipping that part, and just granting him the domain spells as spells known. Since the domain spells are pre-selected, this should balance the power of having 6 extra spells known.
| Myrryr |
Yeah, it has flavor but wow is it definitely a step down in terms of power from the normal bard. Clerical training is most definitely strictly worse than versatile performance, religious lore is just a much restricted and weaker version of bardic knowledge, and the domain, considering you don't get the spells, is about on par with inspire competence.
I'd suggest some buffs to in some fashion.
| Arachnofiend |
Religious Lore is twice the bonus in exchange for getting only one of the skills (one of the Big Three alongside Arcana and Planes, mind you). I think it's mostly a fair trade.
I can see some buffs to the spellcasting bits being warranted. Replacing Clerical Training with Fervor is right out; this archetype is intended to be a buffer first though obviously it can be built as a martial character with the right spell selection. Clerical Training was mostly ripped from the Magician archetype which is the same thing but with Wizard spells, but on the other hand nobody uses the Magician archetype because it sucks...
Maybe make the bonus spells 2nd level and every 3 thereafter? Then it matches pace with when the Bard gets new spells and also gives a fair bit more of them.
| Arachnofiend |
I like it. I think allowing it to be of any alignment would be a good fit, as well. Lawful characters are likely to appreciate a "fine art" such as choir singing.
? This archetype isn't intended to be specifically for worshipers of Asmodeus, that was just how the idea came about... And even if it was, Asmodeus is Lawful so your message still doesn't make sense?
| Inlaa |
Okay, my big complaints...
Clerical Training: Okay, so by the time you hit level 20, you have... 2, 6, 10, 14, 18, so five cleric spells on your spell list. In return, you lose Versatile Performance. Umm... Hooray? You can't even get one Cleric spell per spell level that way. You need a few more Cleric spells than that, in my opinion.
What about every third level after 2nd? That'd leave you with 7 bonus spells by level 20, so that's a bit more wiggle room - and even then that's not extra casting per day, that's just more spells to choose from as a spontaneous caster.
Leave bardic knowledge as is.
Yeah, this. Bardic knowledge is good as is. If you want to change something and put in a more religious flavor, why not look at replacing a couple more of the songs? I mean, a Choir Singer doesn't strike me as someone that uses Suggestion or Mass Suggestion. They're part of a group, after all; they're a Choir Singer.
Why not replace Jack of All Trades or Lore Master with something more religious instead? Or, say, why not give this character backup singers to join their choir? Perhaps they get a lesser sort of cohort that MUST be a member of a certain class (or one of a few classes) and MUST have full ranks in Perform (Sing)?
What about a means of drawing power from other singers? Let's say, for instance, you have three Choir Singers that are each using Inspire Courage; two of them are cohorts or paid followers of the main Choir Singer. You total their character levels to determine how high an Inspire Courage bonus the character gives to a max of <insert a reasonable cap here> more than the highest level choir singer. Or apply this to all their performances.
Maybe a Choir Singer's voice is so strong that s/he can ignore the effects of silence-inducing effects?
I'm just spitballing ideas, so feel free to ignore me here.
| Hark |
I would personally be tempted to just build a new spell list full of divine spells that make sense if used as a form of music and replace to Bard spell list with it. Alternatively, you could just place all spells on the god's domain lists onto the Choir Singer's list of spells that they can learn. Maybe add in a few select generic Divine spells that fit the Choir Singer well.
As part of a Choir they probably should get bonuses when singing as part of a choir. It need not be a bunch of Choirs Singers, they could just lead a choir of normal faithful.
Personal choice really, but I would also try to make it compatable with the Drige Singer Archetype since I can see certain evil faiths wanting to use both at the same time.
| Arcanemuses |
Arcanemuses wrote:I like it. I think allowing it to be of any alignment would be a good fit, as well. Lawful characters are likely to appreciate a "fine art" such as choir singing.? This archetype isn't intended to be specifically for worshipers of Asmodeus, that was just how the idea came about... And even if it was, Asmodeus is Lawful so your message still doesn't make sense?
My mistake for not being clear. I was not referring to Asmodeus. I am simply suggesting that there should be no alignment restrictions on this class because church choirs can be both free form performances full of adlibbed vocal phrasings or a highly structured and complex performances based on planned, note-for-note music. I hope I'm making better sense now.