It was a mook-killer, which is what it is designed to be. I didn't want you (the players) to be able to have an unlimited ability that effectively allows you to autokill one high-level enemy every 30 seconds.I do have a question about this save or "vanish" ability though; typically in PF save or die spells require two saving throws, but this ability requires two saving throws AND two rounds of a successful grapple. It seems too much, especially for a single target ability (it also makes it odd having black tentacles not being an area effect).
How has this worked in play testing? Does it seem well balanced or under powered (it's definitely not over-powered)?
That makes a lot of sense, and it's kind of what I was leaning towards.
Are there traits for occultists? If so, will they be in this book at the end?
Are there traits for occultists? If so, will they be in this book at the end?
What Luthorne said. The final chapter is an "esoteria" chapter, which basically is filled with rules that won't fit anywhere else.
Currently, there's:
— Expanded Aging Rules
— Occultist Background Generator
— Ravager Spirit Rules
— Skill Rules
— Pact Maladies (from Volume 2, but completely revamped)
I'm also playing with the concept of "Occult Taint" rules, as in, when you're exposed too much to occult power, this is what happens to you. Haven't decided if I want to do it or not, however.
Quick question, should a summoner be able to take the Spirit-Touched evolution if they haven't completed the Knowledge Tasks for the spirit in question, even if they can't actually bind spirits themselves? It doesn't say you need to, but it seems reasonable, but on the other hand, you could argue the eidolon could have a connection to the spirit without the summoner knowing of said spirit, so I wasn't sure.
Originally, yes. I expanded the ability to make it clearer (below):
"Spirit-Touched (Su): The eidolon is spirit-touched, granting it 1 minor granted ability from a 1st level spirit of the summoner’s choice. Each time the eidolon is summoned, it gains the chosen minor granted ability; if the summoner doesn’t have the bind spirit class feature, the eidolon’s binder level is equal to half of the summoner’s level. If the summoner has the bind spirits class feature, the eidolon’s binder level is instead equal to the summoner’s level. While summoned, the eidolon is under the spirit’s personality influence and shows the spirit’s physical sign; if the summoner has the bind spirit class feature, he can attempt a binding check against the spirit’s binding DC as a full-round action to suppress its personality influence and grant it the ability to show or suppress the spirit’s physical sign as a move action for the next 24 hours."
Is there a particular reason the seal-etched occultist no longer starts with a free binding tattoo? It's going to be hard to afford it at 1st level. You can probably scrounge up 100 gp by 2nd level, but at that point, it feels like it might as well replace your 2nd level binder secret instead...
No. [Fixed.]
And, incidentally, you seem to have an error with occultist starting wealth. Says it's 2d6 x 10 gp (average 10 gp), and the average of 2d6 x 10 gp would be 70 gp, I believe.
You are correct. [Fixed.]
For Coralene's Unexpected Slip, do you have to have line of sight to where you're teleporting to, or can you attempt to teleport past locked doors and other similar tricks?
Its balanced around the 1st-level focused school power of the teleportation school, so yes. [Fixed.]
For Dantalios' legend, it reads, "But with every step he took, his body aberrate as wicked claws sprouted from his hands and feet..." I don't think aberrate is a word?
Actually, believe it or not, it is.
Nevertheless, it should read "aberrated." Its not a commonly used word, but its real.
Is Dantalios intended to have aberration (any) as both his favored ally and his favored enemy? (I'd think hags/monstrous humanoids would be appropriate as his favored enemy...)
Yes. He doesn't know that the hag hexed him; he's not that bright. Essentially, he sympathizes with other aberrations, but ultimately he hates what he's become.
For Eos Dei's legend, it reads, " Some say, that what could not be salved of Eos Dei..." Should be saved, I believe?
Salvaged, actually. Fixed.
In Milo of Clyde's legend, it reads, "...though he is well-known as monologuing spirit..." Should be 'as a', I believe?
For Milo of Clyde's Milo's Lucky Break, is it intentional that this ability does nothing at 1st level (when you could choose to select him)? Admittedly, this is also true for most of the minor granted abilities that give skill boosts (as well as Verbose's All Tongues), but it seems a bit odd to have a major granted ability that doesn't do anything at a level you can bind the spirit at. Of course, perhaps it's intentional that not all 1st level spirits are good choices to start off with?
— Yes.
— No. Should be minimum 1. [Fixed.]For Milo of Clyde's Milo's Truthtelling, it reads, "...it cannot speak and deliberate and intentional lies for 1 minute per binder level you possess..." Should probably be, 'speak deliberate and intentional lies'?
Yes. [Fixed.]
For Vishgurv's Thrall Shape, it reads, "This ability is polymorph effect." Should be 'a polymorph effect'?
Fixed.
Kinda wish Hessant could empower other weapons, or at least make you proficient with longswords, but I suppose it makes him more attractive for pact magic archetypes for martial classes...or tengu, half-orcs with the City-Raised alternate racial trait, and other such...
His favored weapon in life was a longsword, so that what he makes you good with.
I've heard a lot of feedback on this ability, and I've decided that while I don't want Hessant to be simply giving you a longsword anymore, allowing him to grant you proficiency with longswords is acceptable. In the next build, Hessant's empower longsword will also make you proficient with longswords.
In the future, if your question is essentially questioning my design choices / noticing something is weird, don't phrase it as a question. Just say, "Hey, I noticed that these three similar abilities don't follow the same pattern. What gives?"
That's a LOT easier for me to answer because I don't have to decipher what you're actually trying to ask me.
Roger that--I'll group those similar questions into a single question instead.
I'm planning on making builds with the archetypes / revised Occultist and see how they play, whether I think they give up too many features or not enough features, etc. What type of feedback would you like to see and what is the most useful?
Thanks again for all your time and work on answering our feedback!
I'm planning on making builds with the archetypes / revised Occultist and see how they play, whether I think they give up too many features or not enough features, etc. What type of feedback would you like to see and what is the most useful?
Thanks again for all your time and work on answering our feedback!
Okay, before I get started, here are some general design principals of the archetypes:
1) Occult Archetypes should be good, but they should never be better than the occultist. This is pretty straight-forward; the occultist should be the best at occult spirits, always. Non-occultist archetypes are usually designed to take that class's niche and flavor it with occult stuff. Another way to put it: occult archetypes should feel unique from themselves and the occultist, but that uniqueness should come from the class's own features, not the ability to bind spirits.
2) Please don't try to convince me that trading occult spirits for spells isn't a good enough trade. It is almost impossible to compare spellcasting to occult spirits because they're both extremely versatile in opposite ways. Spells are versatile in what they do, but they're limited in number. Spirits are versatile in number, but more limited in what they do. Not to mention spirits allow non-occultist classes to do stuff that they normally couldn't do, like a rogue using Ubro to use channel energy.
3) Number of features traded doesn't matter; ultimately, the question is "Does this archetype unquestionably perform better than another archetype (or the standard class) at that class's intended role?" Every occult archetype should include major trade-offs and shouldn't be a direct, costless upgrade from the standard class.
Q: Aladdar, Aladdar's Disjunction: This ability states that it has a "range of touch, targets the touched creature, and requires a successful melee touch attack." The wording here should be target instead of creature since it can affect objects as well. It also targets "all magic effects active on a single target" but then mentions "one spell effect." Does it still require a touch attack to affect a spell effect?
Changed to "touched creature or object."
Q: Ashvattha, Baleful Teleport: The wording states that the distance teleported is determined by a d% without the capstone. Does this mean that the distance traveled is the maximum amount allowed by the d% roll? With the capstone it mentions choosing the distance teleported--does this allow you to choose the exact distance teleported or just the teleportation effect used (as the table refers to "Distance Teleported")? Is the effect supposed to be a random target location even if you hit the capstone?
Does this clear it up for you?
"Baleful Teleport: You teleport a target to another place with a touch as a standard action. If you hit the target with a melee touch attack, it is teleported to a random location; which teleportation spell this ability functions as is determined by rolling 1d% and comparing the result to the following table. A successful Will save negates this effect. After using this ability, it becomes expended for 5 rounds.
Capstone Empowerment: If you roll a natural 20 to hit your target with baleful teleport, it receives no Will save against the effect and you may choose which spell baleful teleport functions as instead of rolling on the table."
Q: Ashvattha, Treespeech: Does the initial attitude of friendly or helpful also apply to plant-type creatures?
No. It only applies to normal plants. [Fixed.]
Q: Brother Calvis, Vestigial Bond: This ability states that you can be affected by true ressurection once a day, but then says if you die a second time during the pact that your soul is lost to the byways. Should this be changed to the old wording of "once per pact?"
Yes. [Fixed.]
Q: Daeminthos, Psychic Foresight: Do these motes refresh or are they limited to the duration of the pact as written? This would make shorter pacts much more beneficial and longer pacts negate some of the usefulness of the ability.
They are limited. I'm okay with having one spirit that you don't want to be bound to for a long time. Or maybe you want his other, awesome powers and choose to save the motes for extreme uses only.
Q: Dama, Supreme Flexibility: You cannot select a feat you have already chosen with this ability. Does this last for the duration of the pact or is it limited to 24 hours? Normally abilities/features granted by spirits cannot be used to qualify for feats--is that still true for this ability?
— Basically, its trying to say that you can't pick a feat that you already have. [Fixed.]
— No. You can pick a different feat each time you use it. Its basically martial flexibility, but always limited to one feat for 1 round but is usable at will.— No. For instance, if you're bound to Tyrant Cromwell and he gives you the benefits of Power Attack, you couldn't use those benefits to select Furious Focus with Dama's ability.
Q: King Mutaros, Sparks of Anger: Should the range be 10 ft. for this ability?
Yes.
Q: King Mutaros, Fumes of Fury: Is this ability centered on you or is the edge of the cloud focused on you? The cloud has a 15 ft. radius?
Updated.
"Fumes of Fury: While you are bound to King Mutaros, you can expel a burst of poisonous gas as a standard action that causing all living creatures within 30 feet (except you and your vestigial companion, if any) to die. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect. This ability is a poison effect. A creature that succeeds on its saving throw cannot be the target of this ability for 1 day."
Q: King Mutaros, Roar of the King: This ability doesn't mention a target--the old ability had an area of effect and the new ability sounds like it is single targeted, but it is not explicity stated "...as a move action against a single target..." It also doesn't mention a range on the ability.
Fixed.
"Roar of the King: You unleash a sonic blast as a move action that deals 1d6 points of sonic damage per 3 binder levels to one target within 30 feet. In addition, the target becomes permanently deafened. A successful Reflex save reduces the damage by half and negates the deafened condition."
I'm planning on making builds with the archetypes / revised Occultist and see how they play, whether I think they give up too many features or not enough features, etc. What type of feedback would you like to see and what is the most useful?
Thanks again for all your time and work on answering our feedback!
Okay, before I get started, here are some general design principals of the archetypes:
1) Occult Archetypes should be good, but they should never be better than the occultist. This is pretty straight-forward; the occultist should be the best at occult spirits, always. Non-occultist archetypes are usually designed to take that class's niche and flavor it with occult stuff. Another way to put it: occult archetypes should feel unique from themselves and the occultist, but that uniqueness should come from the class's own features, not the ability to bind spirits.
2) Please don't try to convince me that trading occult spirits for spells isn't a good enough trade. It is almost impossible to compare spellcasting to occult spirits because they're both extremely versatile in opposite ways. Spells are versatile in what they do, but they're limited in number. Spirits are versatile in number, but more limited in what they do. Not to mention spirits allow non-occultist classes to do stuff that they normally couldn't do, like a rogue using Ubro to use channel energy.
3) Number of features traded doesn't matter; ultimately, the question is "Does this archetype unquestionably perform better than another archetype (or the standard class) at that class's intended role?" Every occult archetype should include major trade-offs and shouldn't be a direct, costless upgrade from the standard class.
Should an archetype be better than a x level dip into the occultist class? Is this part of the design? What I'm looking for is when I playtest a class, should I give you commentary that the archetype isn't as good or too good compared to that same non-occultist class taking a dip?
Does this clear it up for you?
"Baleful Teleport: You teleport a target to another place with a touch as a standard action. If you hit the target with a melee touch attack, it is teleported to a random location; which teleportation spell this ability functions as is determined by rolling 1d% and comparing the result to the following table. A successful Will save negates this effect. After using this ability, it becomes expended for 5 rounds.
Capstone Empowerment: If you roll a natural 20 to hit your target with baleful teleport, it receives no Will save against the effect and you may choose which spell baleful teleport functions as instead of rolling on the table."
Yes, this is much clearer, thank you. Teleporting the BBEG to another planet with no save would be priceless. Being a BBEG he can probably come back, but who keeps interplanetary teleport memorized?
Should an archetype be better than a x level dip into the occultist class? Is this part of the design? What I'm looking for is when I playtest a class, should I give you commentary that the archetype isn't as good or too good compared...
Remember that binder levels from multiclassing don't stack for the purpose of determining maximum spirit level. With the exception of the most niche builds (I absolutely need Al'kra's Major Granted ability and nothing else), it is going to be almost impossible to convince me that a dip in occultist is going to be better than an archetype.
Also, please keep this in mind: I am working on a revision to the occult avenger (gunslinger). I've heard the comments about its currently-wonky binding system.
I'm through the Fs in the spells section--I should have it posted tomorrow.
Alright. So I got to play test the class tonight. Actually just go finished.
Ok. So. A friend of my character Oliver (lv. 6 occultist) says that his grandfather had gone missing in the nearby mountains and that we was hunting a malicious spirit (doing so after I bound my 2 spirits for the day Al'Kra and Marat). Turns out it was a very special vampire. One that walks during the day. A vrykolakas CR 10. We go into the fight as prepared as could be (not as much so since the friend didn't call earlier with the news and let me choose Cave Mother instead...). Anyways, we eventually come across it, it getting a surprise hit on Oliver since he didn't notice it. Oliver's friend and Oliver hit back, hard. Both actually managing to crit with their hits, bringing the monster half way in HP. A few more hits, along with Oliver getting up Spatial Bleeding, and it was brought to a quarter HP. Then... everything went wrong.
It used an ability that made Oliver and his friend panicked, dropping their weapons and running like hell to get away. It kept pace and ended up catching up with Oliver. They struggle and he keeps the fight going fairly well, utilizing spatial leap a few times to good effect. He used Marat's defend the ward once. Managing to switch places and striking the foe with a branch that he picked up and used ala catch off guard feat. Eventually though, the creature got his HP down enough that he had to run.
He did so, utilizing the spatial leap and the Dark Beyond's Vanish ability to get away and pop 1 cure light wounds potion. He goes back, gets his weapon (earth breaker) and tries to keep the thing from killing his friend. Oliver dies in the attempt. However, I find myself woken up... as a vrykolakas myself having suffered its energy drain attack. The DM, being a very generous person, gave me massive bumps in abilities and attributes, at the cost that now I hunger for flesh, have an aura that gives the bubonic plague essentially and I have to actively disguise myself or be seen as a vampire... bittersweet I guess.
What I got out of the playtest. -
- I liked having solid knowledge scores. Arcana and religion came in handy.
- Blur from spatial bleeding got a lot of use and I was happy to have it as well as the spatial leap. Since the thing was undead, I never used the Paranoid Chill though. It was basically useless here.
- Marat did next to nothing in this situation, but that's more because I was facing something that hit his AC of 21 on a roll of 8. (I chose his shield variation for the minor ability).
- Bodyguard never came in use. Though I realize Alarm might have had potential, but realistically the character stopped for a few seconds to check something out, so using it wouldn't make sense.
- Binding was fairly balanced. Though i regret not getting Expel Spirits and definitely wished that reserve spirit was available to me at this point of levels.
- I did get use of the Inquiry ability, and while it didn't end up helping me (DM rolled an 80% apparently when I had a 76% chance), I would use it again. Versatile and solid overall.
- I'm now playing an intelligent undead binder. Not sure if that means anything. But it doesn't so far as I can tell.
Well. That's about it. If you have any questions regarding observation, let me know.
Chapter 5: Spells
Allies and Enemies
Revised from before, this spell now requires you to be bound to at least one spirit instead of selecting a spirit you have bound before, granting a +4 bonus on Charisma checks with favored allies and +4 on opposed Bluff, Perception, Sense Motive and Survival checks with favored enemies. The bonuses now apply to the favored allies/favored enemies of all spirits you are currently bound to. This is a nice buff to the spell and makes it easier to ensure that you can get the bonuses.
Allies and Enemies, Greater
As allies and enemies, but the bonus is bigger.
Alter Age
Cleaned up and revised--this now allows you to advance/regress a target's age category 3 steps for 10 minutes/level. If cast on an object, construct, or creature it deals 10 damage/level if advanced or heals 10 damage/level if regressed, max 200. If the creature's age is unknown then spell treats it as if the creature was advanced to Middle Age or regressed to Youth. No longer permanent, but at permanent it was able to bestow immortality of a sort. Note that spell resistance applies, but this spell has no saving throw.
Alter Age, Greater
As alter age, but you can advance/regress to any category even if the target's age is unknown. Objects are affected as alter age, with a maximum of 250. Duration increased to 1 hour/level. With this spell you can turn a dragon back into an egg and then smash it.
Alter Other
Affects an enemy as alter self; requires a melee touch attack and the target can negate with Will. The only limit is "living creature touched," so you can negate an enemy's biggest advantages by granting them a humanoid form. A large dire tiger is attacking you? Transform it into a halfling and laugh! You can also grant the benefits of alter self to your allies.
Antispirit Field
The same as before, but cleaned up, this ability creates an area that blocks all spirits' granted abilities. This can (and usually will) spell doom for binders.
Auger Pact
The same as before, this spell attempts to determine the most useful spirits for the next 8 hours of the three spirits you name. This spell needs a good GM to be effective; one who can look ahead and properly order the spirits' effectiveness. I personally would not use this spell much for this reason.
Auger Pact, Greater
See auger pact, but orders six spirits instead of three.
Baleful Alter Other
You select one target and can permanently alter its form to a Small or Medium humanoid of no more than 1 HD, Fort negates. If the target also fails a Will save the creature loses all abailities that depend on race or form while gaining racial traits of its new form. This spell is devastating against most non-humanoid creatures.
Banish Pact Spirits
This spell acts as dismiss pact spirits but a failed Will save suppresses all spirits' granted abilities for 5 rounds; after the suppression ends the target has to make another Will save for each bound spirit and on a failed saving throw the spirit is exorcized. This is crippling in a pact-magic focused campaign.
Bestow Pact Malady
You touch a creature and grant it a permanent minor pact malady, Will negates. We don't have the list of all the pact maladies, but the older ones can inflict a wide variety of penalties, including turning targets into animals, confusing binders whenever they have bound spirits, and a penalty to binder checks.
Bestow Pact Malady, Greater
Same as above, but a major pact malady, so even better.
Bind Spirit I-V
You can use an arcane spell to bind a spirit for 10 minutes/level. This is a poor pact, but you gain the spirit's major and minor abilities; limited minors are once/day or Casting Modifier rounds/minutes/hours/day. Only one bind spirit spell can be active at a time but it doesn't count against your maximum number of spirits if you have the bind spirits class feature. This is a way for your binder to get a second spirit, or for your non-pact-magic class to bind spirits. Really nice spell and would be wise for any spellcaster to have this available--you still have to have completed the spirits' Knowledge Tasks, but this allows you, as a 1 minute spell, to bind the spirit that is useful at that moment.
Bolster Binding
The same as before, this grants you +4 competence bonus on all binding checks made to seal pacts with spirits for the 10 minute/level duration (up from 13 minutes). A great spell--if you are an archetype that can get it, it's a must-have to hit those difficult binding DCs. If you're a pure Occultist, have an ally get this spell and cast it on you each morning before binding your spirits.
Bones of Damnation
No changes to this spell; if the subject fails an initial Reflex save they must then make a Will save or die. Failure still inflicts 3d6 negative energy. For undead it gives them caster level temporary hp and grants the target the advanced simple template for 1 minute/level. Similar to phantasmal killer as it requires two saves to avoid death--however, it's Reflex and Will, two saves that heavy-armored fighter-types don't have high saves of, so it's great against them.
Capstone Surge
Cleaned up and easier to understand, this lets your next major granted ability to gain the benefit of its capstone empowerment. Lasts 1 round/level so you can "save" the empowerment if better conditions don't present themselves. For some abilities this can let you exchange a 2nd-level spell slot for an ability with maximum damage or reduction bypass.
Cascade of Arrows
As before, you create a 20 ft. radius area (40 ft. high) filled with arrows that lasts 1 round/level. Any creature in the area or moving through it is struck for 1d10 + 1d10/5 levels (max 4d10) and suffers -4 to Perception. The area of the spell is also treated as difficult terrain. There is no saving throw for this spell, so can be useful against high-save enemies. I would save a 4th-level slot for this spell.
Conceal Pact Magic
As before, you can create a symbol that lasts for 24 hours and conceals the presence of spirits within a 20 ft. radius. No saves or spell resistance to overcome this Level 1 spell, so even with its limited nature it's very useful for casting every day in your home base.
Detect Pact Spirits
This spell has been increased from a cantrip/orison to a Level 1 spell and is still limited to detecting occult auras. Necessary in a pact magic focused campaign, but less useful if pact magic isn't a large focus/presence in the campaign.
Dismiss Pact Spirit
There have been several revisions to this spell--it is now a touch attack that, if the target fails the initial Will save, the granted abilities of the lowest level spirit are suppressed for 5 rounds. After the suppression the target must make another Will save; failure of this second save results in the spirit being exorcised, the target cannot bind the spirit for 24 hours, and the maximum number of spirits the target can bind is reduced by 1 (minimum 0) for 24 hours. If you can bind spirits, you do not want a low Will save. This spell is great against pact magic users and terrible if you are one.
Draw Seal
No revisions for this simple utility spell-as 1 fullround action you cast this spell to draw a perfect replica of a spirit's seal out of chalk. Useful if you don't have the time to draw the seal yourself.
Evoke Sign
Slight cleanup; this spell causes the target to manifest all physical signs of all currently bound spirits for the duration of the spell (10 minutes/level) if the target fails a Will save. This can reveal a binder for what she is and can cause her to be chased out of town by superstitious townsfolk. Not as useful for binders unless they want to do the above to an enemy binder.
Exorcist's Lament
No revisions for this great spell--as an immediate action you ignore all attempts to exorcise a bound spirit or other possessing entity for one round; a caster must make a caster level check to be able to affect you. In a pact magic world this spell should be one of the binder's spells for the day.
Flames of Youth
Description has been cleaned up and is clearer; this spell regresses the target creature or object to its previous age category; spell resistance applies, but there is no save. This version of the spell lasts 10 minutes/level. If cast on an object/construct/undead, it heals 3d6+binder level damage and is instantaneous. This is a useful spell to cast in combat to weaken an enemy and also gives the ability to blend in with younger groups.
Flames of Youth, Greater
Same as flames of youth but you can reduce the target's age by two categories or heal 5d6+binder level damage.
Hide from Adults
Affects one creature/level and lasts for 10 min/level. This prevents humanoids that are Youth or older from being able to detect you via any senses, including extraordinary and supernatural, like blidsight, scent, etc, Will save negates. Most infiltration missions in humanoid lands will be against adults, not children, making this spell very useful provided the DC is high enough.
Instantaneous Labor
Most players will never use this spell, honestly. It causes a mother and her baby to grow to full term and labor start, Fortitude negates. The Constitution damage inflicted by this spell (2d6) can kill the mother--the baby will still survive; however, for each point of Con damage suffered by the mother it has a chance to gain a birth defect. If you are an occultist who utilizes spirit birth or are evil this spell could be in your repetoire. GMs can use this spell to great effectiveness.
Last Impression
As before, you touch a corpse and see/hear/feel everything the creature did for up to 1 minute/level before it died. You experience this in real-time and only gain the information the creature possessed. This is very useful for any spellcaster to have, honestly, as being able to see the last moments of something's life could provide more information than speak with dead. Combine the two and you'll be able to get even more out of the dead.
Love Spell
The same as its previous version, this spell causes one or two targets to fall in love for 1 minute/level, Will negates. Provided the targetted creature isn't adverse to the recipient of its affections the 1 minute/level duration could be interpreted as a "spark of love" and the feelings could mature. Depending upon the caster this can be used to great effect, either to help two people who may not normally express their emotions find one another, or to make it extremely awkward for people ("You are now in love with a horse.").
Mental Regression
As a touch attack you wipe the creature's maturity and experiences from its mind, causing it to take a -2 to Int/Cha and -4 to Wis, as well as its BAB is reduced to +1, any skill it possesses ranks in is treated as if it only had 1 rank, and its class level in each class is reduced to 1 for level-dependent effects; this doesn't affect hit points or which class features it possesses. Will negates, and this lasts for 10 minutes/level. This will take an enemy out of the fight and by the description could also make them less interested in you and more interested in their own desires.
Mental Regression, Greater
As mental regression, but it's -6 to Int/Cha, -8 to Wis, and the target falls prone in its space and is unable to speak, write, understand language, or take any actions. Coup de grace to your heart's content (provided your honor will allow you to).
Mindwreck
The touched subject gains the amnesia insanity, Will negates. Great for the BBEG and some adventurers can use it to try to "reform" bad guys.
Occult Sight
Occult sight is to detect pact spirits as arcane sight is to detect magic. Great for a pact magic campaign, not as good for campaigns where pact magic is rare.
Occult Sight, Greater
As occult sight, but you automatically know which occult powers/effects are active.
Protection from the Supernatural
This spell grants the affected subjects a +8 resistance bonus vs. all supernatural abilities, which makes this useful even in a non-pact magic campaign.
Remove Malady
Attempts to remove a pact malady. Since you can bestow pact maladies in all campaigns, this will be useful in all campaigns.
Reveal Heresy
Now a Level 1 spell instead of an orison, but otherwise unchanged. You can touch an object and determine its ethos (chaotic, lawful, neutral), morality (evil, good, neutral), the deity it was designed to venerate (if any), and the name of any religious organizations which designed it (will negates). This is a great spell in any campaign and can help determine what to do with that strange object you found in the dungeon.
Reveal Heretic
As reveal heresy but for a creature instead. This is also a great spell as you can ferret out hidden cultists or worshippers instead of waiting for them to strike.
Sands of Time
This is the opposite of flames of youth and advances a creature one age category for 10 minutes/level or deals 3d6+level damage to objects, contstructs, and undead. As useful as flames of youth.
Sands of Time, Greater
Same as sands of time but increases the target's age by up to two categories or deals 5d6+level damage.
Siphon Sands
Updated to list no saving throw and cleaned up and made clearer. Your target increases its age category by up to 3, and for each age category your target increases you get one of the following:
- Reduce your age category by 1 (minimum Youth).
- Gain +1 inherent bonus to Str, Dex, or Con, which stacks with itself (but not other inherent bonuses).
The duration is 1 day/level, which increases its versatility dramatically, although good characters would be hard-pressed to use this spell in good conscience.
Spirit Birth
This spell has been cleaned up and doesn't mention the child gaining the spirit-touched template, which I believe is a mistake. You can guarantee the conception of a child and the pregnancy is reduced to 30 days. After the child is born it ages quickly, reducing the years per age category to months, up to the Youth category. A human child becomes a Youth in 12 months of age. If the spirit-touched template absence is a mistake, this spell can be used by some adventurers to grant themselves the spirit-touched template by "growing" their replacement for soul/body-switching or for their replacement character if they die.
Spirit's Scourge
As before, you summon a whip that suppresses a target's spirit's granted abilities. With a melee touch attack (10 ft. reach), the target must make a Will save or its highest-level spirit's granted abilities are suppressed for 1d4+1 rounds. Great in a pact-magic campaign, as additional strikes will suppress additional spirits.
Suppress Sign
As before, this spell suppresses the physical sign of a target's bound spirit. Lasts 10 minutes/level, Fort negates. This will prevent the target from using abilities that require the physical sign to be shown. It can also be used on allies if they're unable to suppress a sign themselves that could cause problems.
Sustaining Feast
As before, this spell creates a feast that takes an hour to consume for one creature/level. This feast magically nourishes each creature for 1 day/caster level. This is great for any campaign and can be more useful than create food and water since it nourishes for multiple days at a time.
Undetectable Spirit
As before this protects against 3rd level or lower divination spells to recognize the target being bound to a spirit. Lasts for 24 hours and is useful for hiding a binder's abilities.
Undetectable Spirit, Mass
As undetectable spirit but affects more targets and protects against 6th level or lower divinations.
Zone of Spiritual Abstinence
As before, this spell protects an area from any attempts to seal pacts. Lasts 24 hours and is useful for prisons or other areas to place an enemy binder.
Spell Lists, detect pact spirits: "Sense the presence of absence of occult auras and the power of each aura.
Spell Lists, dismiss pact spirits: "Exorcises the lowest-leveled bound spirit from a creature." Other references in spell descriptions are "lowest-level."
Spell Lists, draw seal: "replicate" is correct here but I wanted to be sure it wasn't meant to be "replica."
Spell Lists, occult sight, greater: "As occult sight, except you automatically identify discern occult auras and powers."
Spell Lists, spirit scourge: The spell's entry refers to its name as spirit's scourge.
Spell Lists, undetectable alignment, mass: There is no entry for this spell. Should this be undetectable spirit, mass instead?
Spell Lists, Bard:
- Level 3
Remove pact malady is missing.
- Level 5
Bind spirit I is missing.
- Level 6
Bind spirit II is missing.
Spell Lists, Cleric:
- Level 3
Instantaneous labor is missing.
Sands of time is missing.
Spell Lists, Druid:
- Level 3
Remove pact malady is missing.
Spell Lists, Sorcerer/Wizard:
- Level 3
Instantaneous labor is missing.
Sands of time is missing.
Spell Lists, Witch:
- Level 3
Bestow pact malady is missing.
Flames of youth is missing.
Instantaneous Labor is missing.
Occult sight is missing.
Remove pact malady is missing.
Sands of time is missing.
--------------------
P267, Allies and Enemies (Both), Level: Does not list antipaladin, bloodrager, or shaman.
P267, Alter Other, Level: The levels are incorrect and according to the spell lists should be "bard 3, magus 3, sorcerer/wizard 3, summoner 3, witch 3."
P267, Antispirit Field, Name: The spell lists and the old version refer to this as "anti-spirit field."
P268, Auger Pact, Greater, Level: Leaves out "inquisitor 3" and "shaman 3."
P269, Baleful Alter Other, Description: Mentions "baleful human form" twice.
P269, Bestow Pact Malady, Level: Missing a comma after "shaman 3."
P270, Bind Sprit V, Description: "...except you summon a 4th-level occult spirit..."
P270, Bolster Binding, Level: Missing "antipaladin 3, paladin 3."
P270, Bones of Damnation: Missing "shaman 4."
P270, Capstone Surge, Level: Missing "alchemist 2, shaman 2."
P270, Conceal Pact Magic, Level: Missing "antipaladin 1, bloodrager 1, paladin 1, shaman 1."
P271, Detect Pact Spirits, Level: Missing "shaman 1."
P271, Dismiss Pact Spirit, Level: Missing "shaman 5."
P271, Draw Seal, Level: Missing "antipaladin 1, bloodrager 1, paladin 1, shaman 1."
P271, Evoke Sign, Level: Missing "antipaladin1, shaman 1."
P272, Exorcist's Lament, Level: Missing "shaman 1."
P273, Instantaneous Labor, Description: "...results in her loosing her ability to have future children..."
P273, Last Impression, Level: Missing "shaman 1."
P274, Protection from the Supernatural, Level: Has "druid 8" instead of "cleric 8" and is missing "shaman 8."
P274, Remove Malady, Description: Refers to "bestow malady" instead of "bestow pact malady."
P274, Reveal Heresy, Level: Missing "antipaladin 1."
P274, Reveal Heretic, Level: Missing "antipaladin 2." Also missing "Target."
P275, Spirit Birth, Level: Missing "shaman 4."
P275, Spirit's Scourge, Level: Missing "antipaladin 2."
P275, Suppress Sign, Level: Missing "antipaladin 1, bloodrager 1, paladin 1, shaman 1."
P276, Undetectable Spirit, Level: Missing "shaman 2."
P276, Zone of Spiritual Abstinence, Level: Missing "antipaladin 2, shaman 2."
Q: Spell Lists, General: Allies and Enemies, Bolster Binding, Bind Spirit I and II, Capstone Surge, Conceal Pact Magic, Draw Seal, Suppress Sign, Undetectable Spirit.
The above spells seem to be "normal" spells any binder who can cast would know and I'm confused as to why they are on certain lists but not others.
The Alchemist archetype retains spellcasting, so it seems to fit that he would also have access to Bolster Binding, Conceal Pact Magic, Draw Seal, and Suppress Sign; it could also make sense for him to have access to Bind Spirit I and Bind Spirit II as does a Bard or Summoner.
The Bloodrager, Inquisitor, Paladin and Ranger archetypes lose spellcasting but they do have access to many of the above spells--the Magus, however, who also loses casting, does not have any of the above on its spell list.
I'd like to know the thoughts behind the spell lists and the presence/absence of the "basic pact magic" spells--do these lists take into account the archetypes that give up spellcasting?
Q: Baleful Alter Other: This spell does not list "living creature" (as alter other), but "creature." Can this affect constructs and undead? Also, the description states "...as long as baleful alter other remains in effect, the target cannot use other polymorph spells or effects to assume a new form." The duration of this spell is permanent, and so the target loses the ability to assume a new form (other than shapechangers, who are immune to this effect)?
Q: Bestow Pact Malady, Greater: Why does the Sorcerer/Wizard receive this at 6 instead of 5 like the other classes that gain this spell? For bestow pact malady the sorcerer/wizard has it at the same level as the other classes.
Q: Last Impression: The target is "one corpse;" does the corpse have to be fully intact for this spell to work or does a partial corpse work as well? If the caster experiences everything that the creature did, does this include providing extraordinary or supernatural senses? If so, then the spell not also providing smell would negate scent. Why does it not provide smell or taste as well?
Q: Mental Regression: The BAB is reduced to +1--for 1/2 or 3/4 BAB classes, should this be +0? Also, would spell-casting ability be considered a "level-dependent effect?" If so, are these spells wiped out of memory (for memorization-based classes)?
Q: Spirit Birth: The description no longer mentions the Youth gaining the Spirit-Touched template. Is this an oversight or intended?
Q: Suppress Sign: This doesn't mention which spirit is affected. Highest-level, lowest-level, or all?
Q: Undetectable Spirit: This spell mentions "You cloak the presence of a spirit..." but also "..3rd level or lower fail to recognize the target as being bound to a spirit." Does this spell only make one spirit per casting undetectable or all spirits undetectable? Also, should this refer to "divination spells" or "divination effects?" For example, undetectable alignment conceals the target's alignment from all forms of divination, not just spells.
Q: Zone of Spiritual Abstinence: This ability mentions a Will save but does not state in the description when the Will save occurs.
- Blur from spatial bleeding got a lot of use and I was happy to have it as well as the spatial leap. Since the thing was undead, I never used the Paranoid Chill though. It was basically useless here.
I think Paranoid Chill should have worked--it causes its target to lose fear immunity if it has any, which I guess you could argue that the undead had, but this should have allowed you to avoid that. It's also not a mind-affecting effect so that shouldn't have prevented it from affecting the undead, either.
- Marat did next to nothing in this situation, but that's more because I was facing something that hit his AC of 21 on a roll of 8. (I chose his shield variation for the minor ability).
I've noticed this as well, even with the older version of Marat. I think this is generally an issue with Pathfinder where AC becomes less important at higher levels against the big single-encounter monsters than other forms of damage mitigation.
- Bodyguard never came in use. Though I realize Alarm might have had potential, but realistically the character stopped for a few seconds to check something out, so using it wouldn't make sense.
I've only used Bodyguard a few times, honestly. Combined with any aid another-boosting items/traits (like the one Alexander had for one of the constellation aspects) this can a few more points to your ally--but as above, when fighting the single-encounter badguy this doesn't come up much, and I normally replace this ability with Marat's familiar.
- Binding was fairly balanced. Though i regret not getting Expel Spirits and definitely wished that reserve spirit was available to me at this point of levels.
I think Expel Spirits will be mandatory to extend a binder's versatility.
- I did get use of the Inquiry ability, and while it didn't end up helping me (DM rolled an 80% apparently when I had a 76% chance), I would use it again. Versatile and solid overall.
Great to hear--it does seem to be a secret every binder should get.
- I'm now playing an intelligent undead binder. Not sure if that means anything. But it doesn't so far as I can tell.
The biggest issue you'll run into is being immune to mind-affecting effects; there are spirits whose abilities will no longer be able to affect you for the better.
As alter age, but you can advance/regress to any category even if the target's age is unknown. Objects are affected as alter age, with a maximum of 250. Duration increased to 1 hour/level. With this spell you can turn a dragon back into an egg and then smash it.
That is incorrect. Being an egg is not an age category; the youngest you could make the dragon is a wyrmling.
And actually, dragons' extreme susceptibility to aging spells is the precise reason why I wrote the temporal grounding ability in Chapter 7. ;-)
I think Paranoid Chill should have worked--it causes its target to lose fear immunity if it has any, which I guess you could argue that the undead had, but this should have allowed you to avoid that. It's also not a mind-affecting effect so that shouldn't have prevented it from affecting the undead, either.
It's true that it loses fear immunity, but they're still immune to the damage. While shaken does give a nice debuff, I just wasn't certain it would be enough to be useful against this particular enemy. Especially if it meant not attacking.
I think Expel Spirits will be mandatory to extend a binder's versatility.
Agreed. I asked my DM how he handled retraining and he said he'd allow me a rewrite since he and I were new to the class. I guess I'm going to be replacing flexible pact making with it. Although, perhaps I should consider replacing capstone binder with it.
Current feats are: Capstone Binder, Catch Off-Guard (fits character and I like it), Flexible Pactmaking and Craft Wondrous Items. So yeah. I did get a CHA boost from becoming undead, so I think taking out flexible pactmaking might make sense. Capstone binder might go though.
I've only used Bodyguard a few times, honestly. Combined with any aid another-boosting items/traits (like the one Alexander had for one of the constellation aspects) this can a few more points to your ally--but as above, when fighting the single-encounter badguy this doesn't come up much, and I normally replace this ability with Marat's familiar.
Good point about the Vestigial companion. I may do so in the future...if I use Marat again.
The biggest issue you'll run into is being immune to mind-affecting effects; there are spirits whose abilities will no longer be able to affect you for the better.
Yeah. Now I have to go through the ones I can currently use and see which ones do such things.
I will say, although I died and was partially disappointed with Marat (for this battle), I did enjoy playing the class at least. Al'Kra was a lot of fun and had I used Cave Mother against the thing, I probably would not have died.
As alter age, but you can advance/regress to any category even if the target's age is unknown. Objects are affected as alter age, with a maximum of 250. Duration increased to 1 hour/level. With this spell you can turn a dragon back into an egg and then smash it.That is incorrect. Being an egg is not an age category; the youngest you could make the dragon is a wyrmling.
True, but saying "squash a wrymling" just didn't sound as fun. Actually, maybe it does. Nevermind.
And actually, dragons' extreme susceptibility to aging spells is the precise reason why I wrote the temporal grounding ability in Chapter 7. ;-)
I noticed that, but I can only hope that the dragons haven't.
It's true that it loses fear immunity, but they're still immune to the damage. While shaken does give a nice debuff, I just wasn't certain it would be enough to be useful against this particular enemy. Especially if it meant not attacking.
Oh, I thought the damage was already considered negligible. To me the damage the ability causes isn't the strength of it. Make it lose its fear immunity and then use your minor to cause the enemy to become frightened. Two actions and two saves, sure, but it's better than the 2d6 damage in my opinion.
Current feats are: Capstone Binder, Catch Off-Guard (fits character and I like it), Flexible Pactmaking and Craft Wondrous Items. So yeah. I did get a CHA boost from becoming undead, so I think taking out flexible pactmaking might make sense. Capstone binder might go though.
If you have the money, since you have Craft Wondrous Item, you could create a Dedicated Vest (15,000 gold) or an item that has a Command-Word Capstone Surge (2 * 3 * 1800 / 2 = 5,400 gold) but with the second option you'd have to burn a standard action to get the effect (which makes the lower price more acceptable)--it's also dependent upon your GM allowing it.
Oh, I thought the damage was already considered negligible. To me the damage the ability causes isn't the strength of it. Make it lose its fear immunity and then use your minor to cause the enemy to become frightened. Two actions and two saves, sure, but it's better than the 2d6 damage in my opinion.
True enough. Damage could be fun if you readied the ability against a caster, but you're right. It's largely negligible unless you're dead set on making things not dead. It may have been useful for the fear effects, I felt like it was likely to pass the saves either way though. So, judgement call.
If you have the money, since you have Craft Wondrous Item, you could create a Dedicated Vest (15,000 gold) or an item that has a Command-Word Capstone Surge (2 * 3 * 1800 / 2 = 5,400 gold) but with the second option you'd have to burn a standard action to get the effect (which makes the lower price more acceptable)--it's also dependent upon your GM allowing it.
The Command-Word Capstone Surge is definitely one to check into when if I get monies in the future. I spent my magic item budget on a couple custom items my DM allowed as well as a "Cyclops Bracer" which is just a bracer using the Cyclops Helm ability. I think I will be switching out Capstone Binder. Some capstones are necessary for them the major to be good, but with the bump in CHA I got and flexible pact making along with a Cyclops Bracer. I may be able to handle it anyways... occasionally. Better versatility ala Expel Spirits than always getting the capstone I think though.
May I say though Orich, that your comments have been quite helpful.
Edit: I will note, that had I taken the "wizard" approach and not bound both spirits at the start, I likely could have had time to bind someone more suitable besides Marat. Like Cave Mother, but without incurring the -10 penalty from Expel Spirits. Still though, it may and probably will come in handy quite a bit.
May I say though Orich, that your comments have been quite helpful.
Edit: I will note, that had I taken the "wizard" approach and not bound both spirits at the start, I likely could have had time to bind someone more suitable besides Marat. Like Cave Mother, but without incurring the -10 penalty from Expel Spirits. Still though, it may and probably will come in handy quite a bit.
Always happy to help!
And it's good that you mention keeping a binding slot "free," as I don't know if everyone thinks of that as an option with binding.
Might have already been mentioned but, under Cromwell's personality influence, it says:
"...You act recklessly and are obsessed with your goals, making others believe that you are made."
Assuming he's not meant to be part of the mafia, is this meant to be mad?
Also. If I may ask. Why binder level 6th for reserve spirit? I mean. Occultists couldn't even get the feat until lv. 7. Was it meant more for fighters? Was it originally a binder secret?
Might have already been mentioned but, under Cromwell's personality influence, it says:
"...You act recklessly and are obsessed with your goals, making others believe that you are made."Assuming he's not meant to be part of the mafia, is this meant to be mad?
Would that be mad as in crazy or mad as in angry? Or maybe others believe you're multiple attribute dependent. :)
Sorry I haven't gotten my play test up yet. Two 12 hour shifts and an Interview have left exactly zero in the way of time over the last 2 days.
Sorry I haven't gotten my play test up yet. Two 12 hour shifts and an Interview have left exactly zero in the way of time over the last 2 days.
It's like that for me almost every day with a full time job and two kids under the age of two. :)
Best of luck with your interview.
Also. If I may ask. Why binder level 6th for reserve spirit? I mean. Occultists couldn't even get the feat until lv. 7. Was it meant more for fighters? Was it originally a binder secret?
I think it was limited due to it granting an extra spirit at no additional penalty other than replacing one of your current spirits.
I had issues with my Level 6 Occultist and spirits, honestly. I could either focus on enhancing my binding check as much as possible to get the spirit's capstones (necessary in the older versions) or I could stack poor pact penalties to have some semblance of being able to respond to the day's demands.
With Flexible Pactmaking I could get my pacts down to 4 hours, but would always suffer the penalties of a poor pact, and never get the capstone. This gave me greater ability to respond to situations that popped up, but even in 4-hour blocks I would get stuck with a spirit that was limited in use during that block of time.
Expel Spirits is nice, but it penalizes all your binding checks for 24 hours, which means it's harder to expel any more spirits and nigh-guarantees poor pacts; it's good for one, maybe two uses with low-level spirits before you can't expel any more. You get versatility now but suffer penalties for your next day as well.
Reserve Spirit is nice, but even with retraining you have to bind a spirit that will always be useful in 1-minute increments--for me, this meant binding Ubro as my Reserve Spirit.
Sorry I haven't gotten my play test up yet. Two 12 hour shifts and an Interview have left exactly zero in the way of time over the last 2 days.
Good luck with the interview!
After analyzing the spells chapter I really enjoy the bind spirit family of spells:
You bind an X-level spirit to your body which does not count against the maximum number of spirits you can bind for the day. The pact is automatically a poor pact and you suffer from the spirit's sign and personality influence. Limited-use abilities are spellcasting mod times a day, or spellcasting mod rounds/minutes/hours a day. Lasts 10-minutes/level. Minimum spell-level 5th for Level 1 Spirits.
I would be willing to give up a full-spirit slot to have the ability to have more versatile binding as an option similar to bind spirits.
I'm not sure if this is too useful, but it'd be nice to have an archetype or prestige class who specializes in versatility of binding at the expense of power.
Prerequisites: Ability to bind 2nd-level spirits.
You sacrifice the ability to bind a stronger spirit in order to be able to seal multiple weaker pacts throughout the day.
Instead of sealing a normal pact with a spirit, you seal a versatile pact instead. The maximum level of a spirit that you can seal with a versatile pact is half your normal maximum spirit level.
A versatile pact is similar to a normal pact except for the following:
- A binder can only have one versatile pact at once, even if the binder can bind more than one spirit.
- A versatile pact lasts 24 hours and cannot be reduced or extended by any means. Any spirits bound with a versatile pact cannot be used with feats or secrets that expend a major ability or suppress a spirit (Reserve Spirit, Undying Aid, Furious Strike, etc.).
- The pact ritual is a modified and generalized version of a normal pact ritual and takes 1 minute of meditation and chanting to perform. This cannot be rushed. At the end of 1 minute the binder seals a pact with a spirit of her choice.
- The pact is always a poor pact, and as such the binder suffers the spirit's sign and influence.
- Any major ability of a spirit bound with a versatile pact is expended twice as long as a normal pact--this would be 10 rounds normally or 8 rounds with Rapid Recovery.
- A binder cannot receive a major ability's capstone empowerment nor a spirit's vestigial bond by any means for any spirit bound with a versatile pact.
- Limited abilities can be used 1/day for daily use abilities or 1 round/minute/hour for round/minute/hour a day abilities. Every 5 binder levels this increases by 1, to a maximum of 5 or 3+Cha, whichever is lower, at Level 20.
- At any time the binder can initiate the 1-minute ritual to bind a different spirit; however, the spirit must either be the same constellation or an allied constellation of the spirit being replaced. For example, if bound to Marat, a Hero spirit, the binder can choose to bind any spirit of the Hero, Noble, or Scholar constellations that she has completed all the Knowledge Tasks for.
- While bound to a spirit using a versatile pact the binder suffers a -2 penalty to Will as their soul is buffeted by spiritual energies.
I think it was limited due to it granting an extra spirit at no additional penalty other than replacing one of your current spirits.
I had issues with my Level 6 Occultist and spirits, honestly. I could either focus on enhancing my binding check as much as possible to get the spirit's capstones (necessary in the older versions) or I could stack poor pact penalties to have some semblance of being able to respond to the day's demands.
With Flexible Pactmaking I could get my pacts down to 4 hours, but would always suffer the penalties of a poor pact, and never get the capstone. This gave me greater ability to respond to situations that popped up, but even in 4-hour blocks I would get stuck with a spirit that was limited in use during that block of time.
Expel Spirits is nice, but it penalizes all your binding checks for 24 hours, which means it's harder to expel any more spirits and nigh-guarantees poor pacts; it's good for one, maybe two uses with low-level spirits before you can't expel any more. You get versatility now but suffer penalties for your next day as well.
Reserve Spirit is nice, but even with retraining you have to bind a spirit that will always be useful in 1-minute increments--for me, this meant binding Ubro as my Reserve Spirit.
I can understand wanting to limit it. I just found it odd that it was limited when one couldn't even get a feat normally I guess, such as 7th level.
I do agree that I wish there were easier ways to switch spirits quickly. Even if it were a once or twice a day limit. What you said about Expel Spirits is true, but its really either that or making a short pact as you said. While neither fit the bill perfectly, it's what we've got to work with.
I'd be down for an archetype like you suggest though, although there is quite a few down sides there for one weakened upside. I'd probably at least like a chance to not be in a poor pact.
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I can understand wanting to limit it. I just found it odd that it was limited when one couldn't even get a feat normally I guess, such as 7th level.
Originally, the occultist got a bonus occult feat at 6th level. The assumption was that you could pick Reserve Spirit with your bonus feat at 6th level before anyone else could. I'll likely go and update the level prerequisite so the occultist qualifies at 5th level instead, mainly so I don't screw over the mascareri prestige class.
Might have already been mentioned but, under Cromwell's personality influence, it says:
"...You act recklessly and are obsessed with your goals, making others believe that you are made."Assuming he's not meant to be part of the mafia, is this meant to be mad?
Also. If I may ask. Why binder level 6th for reserve spirit? I mean. Occultists couldn't even get the feat until lv. 7. Was it meant more for fighters? Was it originally a binder secret?
Mad as "insane."
I'd be down for an archetype like you suggest though, although there is quite a few down sides there for one weakened upside. I'd probably at least like a chance to not be in a poor pact.
Yeah, the reason there are so many downsides to what I suggested was that I wrote it as just a binder secret. An archetype or prestige class could be built around the concept with less downsides.
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I'm going to be introducing pact magic into a campaign I'm running, with an arc's focus on a collective of evil occultists/binders who are focused on collecting evil intelligent magic items.
This will allow pact magic to be "rediscovered," and certain characters in the world will learn pact magic from good spirits/beings. The paladin in the campaign is excited about being able to "gain" the Pactsworn Champion archetype (his god or one the divine agents will teach him about binding and his first spirit via dreams).
I think there's a lot of strength in pact magic for both sides of the morality and am looking forward to making it a large part of the campaign.
Are you still able to take an occult feat in place of a binder secret?
Are you still able to take an occult feat in place of a binder secret?
No, that can no longer be done.
Are you still able to take an occult feat in place of a binder secret?
No, that can no longer be done.
Sort of wish it could be personally. I actually found it difficult to find Secrets I really wanted to use, outside of Inquiry and Pact Effigy. At least as a 6th lv. Occultist.
Sort of wish it could be personally. I actually found it difficult to find Secrets I really wanted to use, outside of Inquiry and Pact Effigy. At least as a 6th lv. Occultist.
Depending upon your build, there are several secrets you may want to take--I'll only list the ones you could have at Level 6 and this list isn't exhaustive.
Allure of the Night: Can be taken at level 1 and acts as the Antagonize Feat, Diplomacy option. It's an AoE and a high Diplomacy check will increase the duration. It can be good for a tank to help take the heat of your allies.
Bountiful Abilities: From Occult Options #1--you add 3 to the number of times you can use a limited-use granted minor ability.
Disguise Granted Abilities: If you're in a campaign where you want to hide the use of your abilities as well as your physical sign, this is a good secret as well, allowing you to take 10 on Bluff and Disguise for these purposes.
Empower Major Ability: Although limited to 3/day (I wish it was higher or scaled with Cha), this acts as Empower Spell but with your major granted ability. Great for caster-type occultists.
Inquiry: As you said, almost a must-have for any occultist.
Intensify Major Ability: From Occult Options #1--you can change the activation of a major ability with a duration of instantaneous (or no duration), and activated as a standard or full-round action to concentration. Each round you concentrate (up to 5 rounds) you gain a +1 bonus to your binder level for the ability as well as a +1 to the DC. Great for out-of-combat use and if you're a caster-type occultist it can be great for in-combat if you have someone else to distract the opponent.
Mutable Bonus: Depending upon what spirits you bind this can let you switch a bonuses for skills you don't use for one that you do. Situational, true, but if you're focused on skills this can be useful.
Occultinogen: If you have cognaton from Alchemical Meister than this is almost a must-have. It lets you have some of the versatility we were discussing earlier, letting you bind a spirit of your choice for an hour. You take Cha damage at the end, but still useful.
Pact Effigy: Again, a must-have for almost all binders as it allows you to qualify for Craft Wondrous Item and the ability to craft most items you'd want to use.
Revelation of Brilliance: Another no-brainer that's dependent upon an archetype, this let's you apply your Cha to all Knowledge skill checks.
Steal Pact Spirits: You need the Intuit Spirit secret for this, but in a pact magic focuses campaign this is great as you can steal a granted ability of an enemy binder. This can give you some powerful one-shots or take away your foe's major granted ability.
Sustenance: Depending on the campaign this is either supremely useful or something that just saves you some money on food/drink. At 10th level, however, you no longer need to breathe, which turns it awesome.
Unbarred: If you're an archetype that has Tunneled Lore, this is another no-brainer. Your binding checks will suffer with the unbarred constellation, but this expands your options greatly.
Undying Aid: It's only binder level hit points healed, but it can be useful in a life-or-death situation.
I'm still not sold on the Occult Weapon secrets, but they can be good for a weapon-focused binder.
Occult Weapon: If you don't mind losing your spirit's minor abilities, you can buff your weapon and get some other weapon-focused secrets.
Seal of Living Darkness: Demoralize as a move action, can be useful, but needed for the other secrets.
Shade Step: At 6th level move 15 feet as a move action without provoking AoOs 3+Cha/day.
Shroud of Shadows: Move action to gain 20% miss chance against melee attacks.
Sort of wish it could be personally. I actually found it difficult to find Secrets I really wanted to use, outside of Inquiry and Pact Effigy. At least as a 6th lv. Occultist.
Actually, now that I'm starting to work on builds I see what you mean. There are lots of secrets that require Occultist 5, but not as many nice ones for the lower levels.
Of the ones you list, I may actually think of retraining Ectoplasmic Resonance with Either Bountiful Abilities (I forgot i had the occult options book), Empower Major Ability or Undying Aid. Save for Inquiry and Pact Effigy, the rest didn't seem like they'd come in use often for me.
Allure of the Night: Is indeed very solid for tanks. As I found out though, tanking large things is quite deadly at this level. So. Probably best left till later at least.
Bountiful Abilities: Is intriguing indeed since it works for all minor abilities and not just a selected spirit. This is a solid possibility.
Disguise Granted Abilities: It's hard to tell how much I'd use this. What action is it to disguise said abilities? Immediate or swift makes the most sense. Could be good I suppose since one would (probably) have a very decent bluff at the very least. Not everyone picks up Disguise though.
Empower Major Ability: Potentially very good depending on the ability at hand. I believe it'd even up Cromwell's capstone roll for a player. Solid and a possibility.
Inquiry: I agree it is very good. Not too good though I think since it is once a day and has a very specific time limit.
Intensify Major Ability: An interesting possibility.
Mutable Bonus: This one was interesting to me as well. But since I don't always use spirits that buff up skills, I decided against it (admittedly it'd probably be better than ectoplasmic in terms of situational usefulness) but it seems interesting with the likes of say Lady Jarah. Does switching out her Perform (oratory) to say Diplomacy allow one to take 10 on diplomacy then?
Occultinogen: Great for alchemists, but since I'm not one, tis a moot secret for me.
Pact Effigy: Very nice secret for obvious reasons, but since it's sort of a feat tax for magic item creation feats, it's not too powerful I think.
Revelation of Brilliance: I'm sure it's amazing. But, again, since I'm not using the archetype, it goes unused.
Steal Pact Spirit: Now had my campaign been heavy binding usage, I'd probably go for this. But, since me and my DM are testing it out, my character is a rare breed in this game. So. Not as useful here.
Sustenance: Not bad at all. Take with a permanent pacted Damien Darkstar and you could feasibly hover in space and just sleep, then descend to earth. That said, there's a magic item that can do most of this.
Unbarred: Good, but since I'm not using an archetype, this becomes unused.
Undying Aid: Decent healing, but even better for what you can pick up down the road (if you get expel spirits). Plus it saves on gold and probably hassle occasionally.
Occult Weapon: Not sold on this myself. It may be good for some builds though. Just not my tastes I guess.
Undying aid makes me wonder if I should choose Expel Spirits over Reserve Spirit now. The duration isn't all that short really. 1-3 minutes might be a solid fight and at 6th that leaves me with 3 more minutes to do stuff. Ubro, Cave Mother, even spirits meant to help in diplomacy, or even Xalen d'Marek makes an interesting possibility. On the other hand, Expel can get you the one spirit you really need over one you didn't need after all. Tough choices. Thanks for the suggestions though. Between reserve spirit and expel spirit, which would you choose Orich?
Edit: aaaaaaand now I just realized I can't have both Inquiry and Pact Effigy at the same time unless I'm using the favored class bonus, which I'm not currently. Lucky my DM allowed 2 rewrites. Getting good use out of the first one. Still have to pick between Reserve Spirit and Expel. Thinking Expel spirit right now though. Think I have to what with having to get my Craft Wondrous at 5th due to Pact Effigy being at 5th.
Tough choices. Thanks for the suggestions though. Between reserve spirit and expel spirit, which would you choose Orich?
If you have a poor binding check or there's only one spirit that you would use sporadically, I think Reserve Spirit is superior.
If you have a good binding check, however, or want to be able to adapt to the situation at hand, Expel Spirits is more powerful.
Assuming the following:
3 = Half Binder Level
3 = Circlet of Persuasion
5 = Charisma bonus (18 and a +2 enhancement item)
1 = Endless Chalk
20 = Cyclops Helm (1/day)32 = Total Binding Check, First Attempt
12 + d20 = Total Binding Check, Additional Attempts
With Reserve Spirit, you get one additional spirit for 6 minutes/day; due to this being a pact with a single spirit you need to bind a spirit in reserve who is always useful. You use it for 1 minute at a time, so you want to make sure it's useful in at least 1 minute increments. Your binding checks won't be modified at all by using Reserve Spirit, so there's no penalty for using the ability.
With Expel Spirit, you can have as many spirits you want as long as you can meet its binding DC to expel it. You can then bind a new spirit, but as the ability is written you're suffering the -10 penalty after you expel the first spirit, and this penalty lasts for 24 hours, impacting your future bindings. If you're okay with poor pacts for the next 24 hours, Expel Spirit is more powerful as you can adjust spirits as need arises. There is also no penalty for failing the binding check to expel, so you can retry it at least.
Two Level 3 Spirits Bound
Average Binding DC for a Level 3 Spirit: 20
1st Expel Roll Needed: 8
2nd Expel Roll Needed: 18 (Use the Cyclops Helm here)
3rd+ Expel Roll Needed: Impossible to expelTotal Penalty to Binding Checks for 24 Hours: -20
As you can see from above, reasonably maximizing what you can do at 6th you can get your first expel off on the first try 65% of the time. You can get a second expel 15% of the time, increased to 100% with the Cyclops Helm. You will not be able to expel a third spirit, so it's a maximum of two changes during the day. However, the new spirits you bind after expelling as well as any spirits you bind for 24 hours are going to be poor pacts; without a Capstone-Surge item you're going to be without the capstones as well as suffering the signs/influences.
Also to note, Flexible Pactmaking will let you get your pacts down to 4 hours each at a -5 penalty to the binding check. For a Level 3 spirit, without the Cyclops Helm, you'll have a 40% chance to form a good pact with the spirit (without the capstone). However, even assuming a poor pact, this would grant you a total number of changes throughout the day of 8 (2 spirits * (16 hours/4 hours per pact)). This is assuming 8 hours of sleep.
Reserve Spirit:
* 1 Spirit changed during the day, maximum of binder level minutes a day, must be useful in 1 minute increments.
* Normal chance for a good pact.
* Normal chance for spirit of capstone.Expel Spirit (Does not stack with Flexible Pactmaking):
* 2 Spirits changed during the day, no binding time limit.
* High chance to guaranteed poor pacts with changed spirits and all other binding checks (including ritual secrets) for 24 hours.
* Low to no chance of capstone.Flexible Pactmaking (Does not stack with Expel Spirit):
* 8 Spirits changed during the day, 4 hour duration for each spirit.
* Medium-high chance of poor pacts with changed spirits.
* Low chance of capstone.
For my playstyle, I think Flexible Pactmaking is superior to Expel Spirit, as it gives me more control over my poor pacts and who I make them with. Reserve Spirit is also a good choice as it is a "bonus" spirit, but it has to be one that would always be useful (like the healing from Ubro).
If Expel Spirits didn't have the huge penalty to binding checks then I could see it be more useful--reducing the penalty to -5 would allow you to have 4 expels and would be more on-par with Flexible Pactmaking. Unfortunately the penalty just makes the ability not worth it unless you're a binder that sticks with set spirits and doesn't change them unless in an emergency.
Sorry for the lack of comments; these past few days have been busy.
Expel Spirits isn't supposed to be "worth it;" specifically, its not supposed to be an option that you're supposed to want to use. The spirits sure as heck don't want it to be easy/profitable for you to expel them from your soul! If you're using it to bind a spirit in a pinch for an emergency/niche situation, then you're using it as its intended.
Because when you get right down to it, Expel Spirit is like having a feat that allows a wizard to reprepare a quanity of spells that he's already prepared each day.
Sort of wish it could be personally. I actually found it difficult to find Secrets I really wanted to use, outside of Inquiry and Pact Effigy. At least as a 6th lv. Occultist.Are you still able to take an occult feat in place of a binder secret?
No, that can no longer be done.
You never could pick a feat instead of a binder secret, you used to pick a binder secret instead of a feat.
Here's a question: do you guys think that the presentation of binder secrets would be better organization-wise if I listed them like rogue talents or similar class powers instead of feats?
Here's a question: do you guys think that the presentation of binder secrets would be better organization-wise if I listed them like rogue talents or similar class powers instead of feats?
EDIT: After going through my books again I'm going to agree with bookrat. I forgot the presentation for rogue talents and it does get jumbled the more talents there are.
Also realizing that there are archetypes that qualify for secrets, it's better for the secrets to be in a section of their own so that the archetypes don't have to look at the Occultist class to see their secrets.
Sorry for the lack of comments; these past few days have been busy.
No worries, Alexander, we understand that you have a life outside of this forum. :)
Because when you get right down to it, Expel Spirit is like having a feat that allows a wizard to reprepare a quanity of spells that he's already prepared each day.
True, but the Arcanist exists which can do just that with an exploit.
To be honest, my old occultist didn't do much beyond manipulating pact duration with Flexible Pactmaking due to the ability to choose which spirit(s) he makes a poor pact with. Expel Spirit was hard to justify when I needed spirits' capstones for my build.
Here's a question: do you guys think that the presentation of binder secrets would be better organization-wise if I listed them like rogue talents or similar class powers instead of feats?
I'm fine with them as they are. As a newbie to the system, I do not find them confusing with feats. They're in a separate chapter and are easy to understand that they're linked with a class feature.
Also, I've never been a fan of the prerequisites being imbedded in the text like the rogue talents or barbarian rage powers are.
I'll be getting the chance to playtest this Friday. Woo!
I'll be getting the chance to playtest this Friday. Woo!
What type of binder are you planning on making?
I'll be getting the chance to playtest this Friday. Woo!What type of binder are you planning on making?
I'm not entirely sure yet. I think I'll make a standard occultist and try out some different spirits to bind to, as wel as make one or two archetype classes. I'm planning on just doing some random combats to play with the mechanics.
Got any suggestions or anything in particular you would like to see played out?