I was wanting to build a powerful Cha focused character and I could not imagine a better more rounded class combo then the Paladin gestalted with the Bard.
It grants 1-4 Divine spells, 1-6 Arcane spells, 6+Int skills, d10 Hd, all good saves, Cha to saves (Making them insane).
Sure I am stuck to Light armor, Mithral Medium armor or so.
But I need help making this character more balanced, I probably won't be going two weapon, I might go Shield and Sword but Archery is also a possible choice.
Race wise I like the Kasatha (even though it gives no bonuses to my class) its 4 attacks a round, with buffs makes this guy a power house to damage output.
Killoren is a good choice, its own unique smiting attack is fun and being Fey means he can be LG but also really fun.
But I am curious how many think an Aasimar would just be better?
What feats are good choices, what traits?
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Sorry, do you need a Palatard? I think you get 5 of them for free for each allignment thread you buy.
You know what nvm...
Bardadin is a much better term.
Still this should not be about the nickname I gave to the combo.
I was wanting to build a powerful Cha focused character and I could not imagine a better more rounded class combo then the Paladin gestalted with the Bard.
It grants 1-4 Divine spells, 1-6 Arcane spells, 6+Int skills, d10 Hd, all good saves, Cha to saves (Making them insane).
Sure I am stuck to Light armor, Mithral Medium armor or so.
But I need help making this character more balanced, I probably won't be going two weapon, I might go Shield and Sword but Archery is also a possible choice.
Race wise I like the Kasatha (even though it gives no bonuses to my class) its 4 attacks a round, with buffs makes this guy a power house to damage output.
Killoren is a good choice, its own unique smiting attack is fun and being Fey means he can be LG but also really fun.
But I am curious how many think an Aasimar would just be better?
What feats are good choices, what traits?
Without being Gestalt, I built a Paladin 2/Bard 18 that had full character CL, was capable of wearing Heavy Armor (without casting problems, though never needed to), used an Arcane Bonded weapon, had (close to) full Bard spell progression, and is the best frontline support that I could ever think of creating, since it could aid for AC, to-hit (which also added to damage thanks to Arcane Strike), as well as whatever buffs, CC, and other goodies you could possibly imagine from being a Sacred Shield Paladin with an Oath of Charity, combined with an Arcane Duelist Bard. (Did I also mention he was very tankey, despite being a Bard?)
The Azata-Blooded Aasimar (race I used in my build above) grants +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, Diplomacy and Perform (All) Skill Bonuses, and a Glitterdust SLA. I recommend this if you plan on going the build I went, which was primarily support and buffs through Aid Another, CC, and Performance. The only times he would be attacking would be with any damage spells he might have.
Otherwise, the Angel-Blooded Aasimar grants +2 Strength, +2 Charisma, Heal and Knowledge (Planes) Skill Bonuses, and an Alter Self SLA (which can increase your Strength even more, and provide some other decent goodies).
The biggest thing you're going to want to establish is what sort of niche you're wanting to fill with your gestalt: Are you going to be a big damage dealer? Are you going to be a tank-type character? Are you going to focus more on being a support-type? Will you be primarily focused on spellcasting or physical attacks?
From there, we determine what feats you should take. Some no-brainers are (probably) Lingering Performance, Discordant Voice, Improved Initiative, etc. If you take Arcane Duelist, you get bonus feats which can cover some of your other no-brainers (Combat Casting) as well as some extra damage you can enable (Arcane Strike, Penetrating Strike, etc.) As for traits, since you will be full spell progression on both (it seems), CL loss isn't an issue. So take the typical Reactionary + Indomitable Faith (or Birthmark) traits. If you're lost on feats, taking the Additional Traits feat for 2 more different traits is always good, since there are some powerful traits out there you could take.
I don't know much about Gestalt. I recommend taking Oath of Vengeance as a Paladin though since the flexibility of being able to sacrifice uses of Lay on Hands to gain more Smite Evil can be very useful.
I wanted to be a mid line fighter, not quite in the back not quite on the frontline. Sure I want to have damage output for when I step forward but I can find that in a number of ways. Killoren smite people without having to be evil and can do it once an hour, Kasatha get four attacks a turn at level 1.
but I also want to be sure when I step back I can buff the party, manipulate the enemies. Basically be a jack of all trades with a more well rounded if not complete routine.
I wanted to be a mid line fighter, not quite in the back not quite on the frontline. Sure I want to have damage output for when I step forward but I can find that in a number of ways. Killoren smite people without having to be evil and can do it once an hour, Kasatha get four attacks a turn at level 1.
but I also want to be sure when I step back I can buff the party, manipulate the enemies. Basically be a jack of all trades with a more well rounded if not complete routine.
So you're basically looking to fill more of a Battle Cleric niche, which usually specializes in being able to buff themselves (and maybe others) to be powerhouses, but has other combat utility to them. Makes sense.
My biggest concern about trying to be melee with some utility is your BAB. Most classes that have less than full progression BAB will fall behind in the later levels (though in the earlier levels, they can win out due to their buffs, but buffs are mostly applicable to about anyone). These classes can be good in melee (since they function equal to unbuffed full progression BAB martials), but their only saving grace is their buffs and utility; if the enemies have that too, they will be struggling against them. If you will be having a full BAB progression with this gestalt, then I see no problems being able to be useful in the thick fighting away, or in the thin throwing out what you can, since you can buff yourself to crazy levels of power (Divine Favor and Divine Sacrifice from 1st level Paladin Spells, Heroism and Haste from Bard spells).
Another issue you'll want to establish is the type of methods you want to help out with, and how you plan to get them optimized. My support build used a Heavy Mithril Shield with Mithril Medium Armor and a Cestus (which usually held a Metamagic Rod of some sort), meaning he could be able to Aid Another while being able to use Metamagic Rods to Quicken or Extend certain spells (presumably buffs). Since my Arcane Bond allowed me to use the hand holding my weapon, I didn't run into issues casting spells, even with that hand holding a Metamagic Rod on top of it.
Since you said you considered Sword and Board, you can use a Light Shield with a basic one-handed weapon, which allows you to cast without dropping your weapons, or if you took Arcane Duelist, you could skate away with a Heavy Shield and your weapon of choice becomes your Arcane Bond, which is the most basic choice that is also fairly practical to what you want to do. As for your ranged options, you don't have much; the good news is your proficiencies from your Paladin class allow you access to use a Composite Long Bow (though your to-hit won't be as strong, your damage will still be up there) as well as some spells (Bards get a couple ranged damaging spells), but that's all you got for ranged options.
Remember that even if you get extra attacks from racial stuff (the Kasatha), those are usually natural weapons. Unless you take the time to invest into them (a +5 Amulet of Mighty Fists does the trick, but is quite pricy), they won't be that advantageous, since they'll have to deal with Damage Reduction, and will only be useful if you plan to Full Attack.
Lastly, since you are including 3PP (or to be more accurate, 3.X material), I'd research some of the spells available in them, as they can be really powerful. In the Spell Compendium, Paladins have some of the most ridiculous spells you could think of, and Bards get some nice spells too (Improvisation is wicked OP).
Also, are you wanting to be a skill monkey on top of being able to be useful in melee and ranged, or will you have somebody who can cover most of the bases (and you can fill in as necessary)? What point buy are you using? And will you be Strength focused or Dexterity focused as far as your optimization is concerned?
This screams out for the Arcane Duelist archetype. Better armor at higher level, a bonded object weapon, bonus feats and you keep inspire courage. Just grab a big weapon and take power attack and you should do fine damage without any other tricks, add on smite evil and inspire courage and some spells and it gets brutal.
Kasatha have one primary hand and three off hands, all four can wield weapons and attack with them, depending on the weapon they follow the same rules as Two-Weapon Fighting.
My BAB will be full for the Gestalt as Paladin has full BAB, all good saves with Cha to saves.
My point buy is 25.
Kasatha have one primary hand and three off hands, all four can wield weapons and attack with them, depending on the weapon they follow the same rules as Two-Weapon Fighting.
My BAB will be full for the Gestalt as Paladin has full BAB, all good saves with Cha to saves.
My point buy is 25.
Even if they get 4 attacks, your other 3 arms (probably) do not get more than one attack, regardless if using them with Natural Weapons or Multi-Weapon Fighting. This can be a nice boon, since you only need to invest 2 feats into it (Multi-Weapon Fighting and Double Slice for full Strength). But you only get 10 feats at base, and Arcane Duelist only shores up a couple de-facto feats (Arcane Strike, Combat Casting), as well as some neat options later on if fighting non-Evil enemies. This means you will be feat starved, especially when you're trying to fulfill two different class roles.
Since you will be full BAB, being an effective front line should be no problem for you, especially with all of the buffs you can give yourself. With that said, it sounds like Sword and Board is the best option, especially when your damage will be coming from your static bonuses, the critical multiplier will be more important to you. I'd consider using a Scimitar and Light Shield (upgrading to Heavy Shield when you get your Arcane Bond, since you no longer need to swap your weapon into your other hand).
Assuming Angel-Blooded Aasimar, your stat allocations after Racials should be as follows:
Strength - 18 (16 + 2)
Dexterity - 12
Constitution - 10
Intelligence - 13
Wisdom - 10
Charisma - 18 (16 + 2)
This is presuming you don't want dumpstats. (And before you ask, the 13 Intelligence is for Combat Expertise and this powerful Paladin feat.)
If you don't want any of those, I'd suggest making the Constitution be 12 and the Dexterity be 13 instead.
Some obvious feats you will want are Power Attack, Lingering Performance, Discordant Voice, Reward of Grace, Fearless Aura, and maybe Extra Lay on Hands. If you can stomach the feats, I'd consider the Eldritch Heritage feat chains, as you can get some pretty powerful stuff from that (for example, you can get an Inherent Bonus to Strength from the Abyssal or Orc Bloodlines with the Improved Eldritch Heritage feat). It's a 3 feat investment, but it will eliminate the need to enhance your Strength via Level Increase Attribute points, allowing it all to go to Charisma.
The way they work according to James Jacobs is That you get 1 attack via your primary hand, and 1 for each off hand (total of 3 off-hand attacks)
With Improved Two-Weapon fighting (+6 BAB) that means he get 2 attacks with his primary hand, and 3 for his normal off hands, and an additional off hand due to Improved TWF. So that is 6 attacks per round at level 6 or 8 depending on the class's BAB.
The rest looks really interesting, just wanted to be clear on what I meant and what you meant.
No I don't like dump stats, it seems a little minmax to dump a stat to the point of you being very hindered by that stat. For example dumping Wis hurts perception the most used skill in the game.
I do like the Bard, I like how it flows with the Paladin and I just like the Bard in general.
The way they work according to James Jacobs is That you get 1 attack via your primary hand, and 1 for each off hand (total of 3 off-hand attacks)
With Improved Two-Weapon fighting (+6 BAB) that means he get 2 attacks with his primary hand, and 3 for his normal off hands, and an additional off hand due to Improved TWF. So that is 6 attacks per round at level 6 or 8 depending on the class's BAB.
The rest looks really interesting, just wanted to be clear on what I meant and what you meant.
No I don't like dump stats, it seems a little minmax to dump a stat to the point of you being very hindered by that stat. For example dumping Wis hurts perception the most used skill in the game.
I suppose one could rule it that way, but I don't think it's really worth the investment. Although you get killer to-hit and damage, your feats are very precious, and having to focus on multiple weapons at a time really hurts your spending cash if you want to make your weapons up to snuff in combat.
In addition to that, you're not receiving racial stat bonuses to two of your most important attributes, Strength and Charisma. Kasathas add to Dexterity and Wisdom, which sounds more like Ranged Cleric or Monk stats, as well as lacking the skill benefits and the Alter Self 1/day SLA, which increases your Strength even further, as well as other goodies.
The Kasatha might be a badass to play in the early levels, but it will lose out against other Gestalts in the long run due to the increased maintenance that comes with him (that your two classes aren't built to handle).