| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This came up in a PbP game, and while it won't matter much (I think) for the ongoing game, I'm curious about what the official rules are.
So, my actual question: does the decrease in movement speed by wearing medium armour stack with the armour's armour check penalty in regard to jumping? There hasn't been an offical ruling on this, and I could find very little information about it online. I found this and this, but even in these threads, there are some conflicting opinions.
I'll re-post some stuff I posted in the thread:
There's some funkyness with interpretations of "base land speed" (see this and this), but if I interpret this correctly, I should be able to clear 5-feet holes when I take 10 (-3 ACP, +2 DEX, DC is 5 with a running start) (this phrase being key in my interpretation: Your speed is determined by your race and your armor (see Table: Tactical Speed). Your speed while unarmored is your base land speed. My movement is slower because of armour, but it doesn't give me a penalty to Acrobatics, because that's not my base speed.)
Page 192 of the CRB says "Your speed while unarmoured is your base land speed"(emphasis mine), while the Acrobatics skill description says "Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a -4 racial penalty (...)" (p. 88, emphasis mine).
I've done a quick Google search and couldn't find any definitive answer on the matter, but I think stacking both ACP and lower movement in armour is too harsh. The reduced movement is already accounted for in the ACP, I feel.
Also, it calculates from base land speed, which is when you're unencumbered. My base land speed is 30, but my land speed is 20 because of armour. Your reasoning says that someone in fullplate gets a -10 already. Yeah, armour is heavy, but that makes it almost impossible for that person to jump a five-foot pit if he's not trained in Acrobatics (say, Clerics, Paladins, and so on).
Besides, the bonus/penalty being a racial modifier implies that encumbrance isn't related to it at all. Gnomes have short legs, therefore they can't jump as far. I'm slower in my armour, but only the mobility of my armour (my ACP) is what affect my ability to jump gaps (again, jumping asks for base land speed, not current land speed).
In retrospect, I could've worded that second post a bit better, but I was just awake and not as eloquent as I usually am.
My GM answered with this:
the links provided for reading all seem to agree that its the modified speed, and everyone seems to needlessly argue over what the definition of "base speed" vs current speed is.
one of the posts says the armor check penalty accounts for it, and a counter point shows that a dwarf in armor also gets double penalized.
you're trying to make a rules-as-written argument for a position that's grey.
you said yourself you can't find a definitive ruling online.people just get way too hung up on "base land speed" , when its never clearly defined anywhere, and likely a carryover from 3.5. The problem with looking exclusively at the acrobatics skill entry is that it only mentions base land speed and makes no assumptions to encumbrance and armor. because its an intersection of rules, and to spell it out everywhere would be overly complicated and increase word count.
if you look at armor check penalty as the way armor inhibits your movement, and the reduced speed as something that works against you gaining good momentum to make the jump, both factor into a character in heavy armor being able to jump. Which seems more feasible to you? that a knight in full plate armor has a hard time moving around? or that he's able to perform olympic high jumps even in heavily restrictive armor?
you want: your total jump skill modifier to be -3 armor check penalty.
if you were a dwarf: your jump skill modifier would already have a -4 from being limited to 20 ft. per round.there's no difference in my mind between an armored human moving at 20 ft. and a dwarf moving at 20 ft, with respect to jump modifier.
don't get too hung up on the term base land speed. it has't solved any of the discussions about it online. and from what i can ready, most of them seem to agree that armor check penalty and your modified speed both factor into jump checks.
I see his point, but the deliberate lack of using the correct words mean that things get more confusing than they should be. I agree that making jumps in armour shouldn't be that easy, but double-penalizing doesn't seem like something that should happen.
For now, I will listen to my GM. We both explained our arguments and he says he won't change his ruling. I'm fine with that; I don't have a choice, it's either that or throw a hissy fit that won't change anything either. But if someone could come with some conclusive evidence either way, that'd be awesome.
|
i've had time to dig and research a bit too
I agree that it's worded awkwardly, but in cases like this it's best to apply a dose of logic and common sense; if someone were moving faster than someone else when they jumped, logically they would go further than the slower person.
lets say you have a "base land speed" of 30 ft. and you wear armor which leaves you with a "reduced speed" of 20 ft. what would you call that as a developer?
you couldn't call it a penalty, it varies based on the "base land speed" you start with.you couldn't call it a "base land speed" anymore because its been reduced.
its just your reduced speed now.
the acrobatics skill never gives any mention of armor or what happens if you're in armor and have a reduced speed.
if the logic is this all limited by anatomy, then the "base land speed" is mentioned because gnomes and dwarves have 20 ft. base land speed, and find it harder to jump.
but haste increases speed. it gives you an enhancement bonus to speed. its actually worded "All of the hasted creature's modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject's normal speed using that form of movement." not as a bonus to base land speed.
so aforementioned guy in armor now has an effective base land speed of 60 ft. a higher than normal base land speed, and so its on a different chart, but his speed in medium armor is 40 ft. now, after haste. does he get a +12 bonus for having 30ft above his normal base land speed of 30 ? or a +4 for being 10 ft. above his normal base land speed? since he's got a reduced speed in armor. ( hint: in my games its +4; his "increased speed" is now only 10 ft above the benchmark 30 ft. ). the spell says "it affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for increased speed."
lets check a similar spell: slow
A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.
slow halves a target's "normal speed" ( evidence i think that getting to hung up on 'base land speed' can be bad for you ). If the world were perfect, it might say your "effective base land speed" or "base land speed", but then you might think you can add enhancement bonuses on top of it. If said guy in armor weren't effected by a Haste spell, and instead suffered from a Slow spell, we halve his 30 ft. to 15 ft. and then reduce his speed due to armor. down to 10 ft.
slow states the decrease: which affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.
its not saying decreased base land speed, its just decreased speed.
which is to say that said guy in armor with a speed of 10 due to the slow spell, would suffer a -8 penalty to jump checks for "decreased speed"
and a guy in armor with a speed of 20 would suffer a -4 penalty "as normal for a decreased speed".
a slower person logically has a harder time jumping.
and it would be on top of armor check penalty. but there's lots of ways to reduce and mitigate armor check penalty, there's fewer ways to mitigate a slow speed. a high level fighter in mithril armor may have 0 armor check penalty, and eventually negate decreases to his speed from armor. but until then you have penalties from multiple sources. one from the armor check penalty to jumping, one from a decreased speed for jumping.
maybe next edition they'll clarify it
as a real life exercise: measure how far you can jump. then tie you legs together,make sure the length of the rope limits your legs to being only half as far apart as they normally get. try and jump again. i'm curious if your reduced speed will affect your jump check.
I tried this at home and.... oh wait, no I didn't. I thought about your premise.
Wouldn't it be more useful to run and jump, then tie you legs together,make sure the length of the rope limits your legs to being only half as far apart as they normally get, try and run and jump again?
Granted having your legs tied makes a standing jump...awkward, but I'd not call it at a "reduced speed". Unless you are assuming that the thread is about base speed and we are therefore talking about jumps not from standing...?
I agree that is seems logical that slower speed = more penalties, regardless of how you got to that speed (be it racial, magical, or armour (-ical?), but the fact that the penalty for jumping with decreased land speed is racial makes me doubtful. Then again, things like Haste add to base land speed as well, and you can hardly call that racial.
I'd agree with my GM on this if this were real life, but from a game standpoint, I'd favour my own interpretation. Mithral makes jumps easier, that's true, but there are still plenty of things that make clearing a 10-foot gap very difficult. My Cleric could do so if taking 10 with mithral armour and on a light load, but that's about it. Until that point, he's boned. No Acrobatics as class skill, no magic to help him, and so on.
Different example: A Rogue needs to jump 10 feet. Say he's a fairly strong Rogue, with 14 STR. His light load is 58 lbs. A Rogue's Kit (which includes a lot of crap, I agree) weighs 37 lbs. You can dump some of that with party members, but some things are really necessary. A mithral chain shirt weighs 12.5 lbs (if he's wearing a regular chain shirt, he's already way into his medium load). That's about 10 lbs worth of other stuff you can carry before not being able to jump that 10-foot gap anymore. A dagger or two, a shortsword, maybe a bow and arrows, and you're already at your limit (oh yeah, and clothing. Even peasant's clothes are 2 lbs). At least he has the DEX and skill points to make up for it, but still. He takes a -4 penalty just for carrying his essential stuff with him.
Kinda lost my point here. Mithral and spells can't solve anything, and I feel that especially on low-level, this rules interpretation can be unfairly harsh on people.
|
There are two different types of speed mentioned in the acrobatics section:
Finally, you can use the Acrobatics skill to make jumps or to soften a fall. The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal) or four times the height to be reached (if vertical). These DCs double if you do not have at least 10 feet of space to get a running start. The only Acrobatics modifiers that apply are those concerning the surface you are jumping from. If you fail this check by 4 or less, you can attempt a DC 20 Reflex save to grab hold of the other side after having missed the jump. If you fail by 5 or more, you fail to make the jump and fall (or land prone, in the case of a vertical jump). Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet. Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a –4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30 feet. No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round. For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump (and if the check fails, the distance at which you actually land and fall prone). Halve this result for a standing long jump to determine where you land.
So, if your base land speed was 40 ft, you always gain a +4 bonus to jump checks. However, if it was reduced by some effect to 20 feet, you'd only be able to jump 20 feet, even though you retain the +4 bonus to the check.