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hi there
i can assume that combat expertise can kick in only when you declare (as by rule) and execute the attack ?
and the AC modifier will kick in in that moment and until the start of your next round ?
i had this situation
player A, with initiative count 27 and a readyed action (melee attack)
npc b, with initiative count 30 and readyed action (witchfire ranged attack)
at count 30 the npc starts its attack (he is flying overhead and so Player A cant attack him at all)
i roll 2 times, hitting the ranged touch armor of the player A, that says "i am using combat expertise, since i am a fighter lvl 12, i have my AC raised by 7, dodge bonus, so my AC isnt 15 (and i could have hit him 2 times with my rolls) but 22, ending with 2 misses
i could have ruled anyway, the GM rules as he wants, but didnt knew exactly wich was the correct ruling.
so i am asking.
i could say he couldnt use combat expertise, since
1) he couldnt even attack them, hence his readyed action wasnt performable (the melee attack) and his CE was henceforth useless
2) a declaration of eventual full defense had to be done at his round, and not at mine, but since he was readying (but an attack and not a defense... ) he could act before me
any suggestions are appreciated
Assuming he did not have combat expertise active from the previous round he has not taken an attack to use combat expertise with.
Further, I'm not sure whether or not you can ready an attack and use combat expertise.
Combat Expertise (Combat)
You can increase your defense at the expense of your accuracy.
Prerequisite: Int 13.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the dodge bonus increases by +1. You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon. The effects of this feat last until your next turn.
It's unclear what should happen when he readies to attack.
Further, if he didn't say he wanted to use combat expertise when he readied then didn't.
Edit:
With further reading
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
It seems within rules to ready an attack and simultaneously declare that you would use combat expertise. But you would need to clarify that you are using it then. I also think it wouldn't kick in until you actually make the attack.
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yeah, i was assuming the same.
but what i need to stress out here is if
1) you can declare combat expertise as declaration of intent (and then not going to attack, because of a lack of viable targets)
2) you cant declare combat expertise if you arent going to attack nothing (even if the declaration stands before going to execute the attack properly)
You must make the attack to use combat expertise.
So he could ready to attack and declare he was going to use combat expertise when he did so. But the effect of combat expertise wouldn't come into play until he made the attack.
You are right that he cannot declare he is using combat expertise if he has nothing to attack. The ready is an exception that says "I'm waiting to attack when there is a viable target". When he makes the attack (which might not happen at all) then he gets to benefit from anything that he can do with the attack, which would include combat expertise.
No problem, glad to be of help.
Did he declare who was attacking? He could attack a clump of grass and still benefit from Combat Expertise.
A designer said something to that effect long ago, during the 3.5 days I think.
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Would he be able to ready an action to attack, and only decide to use Combat Expertise once he gets the opportunity to attack (but obviously before he rolls to hit)? I'm pretty sure Power Attack lets you do this, but I don't know if Combat Expertise does.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the dodge bonus increases by +1. You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon. The effects of this feat last until your next turn.
Looking at it, I'm thinking "no", but I'd love a second opinion. :)
Then there's the issue that Combat Expertise gives you a dodge bonus, which doesn't apply when you're flat footed.
Unless he has Uncanny Dodge, it wouldn't work anyway.
Yeah, attacking non-existent enemies is just ridiculously metagamey.
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The bonuses don't kick in until the action is taken so readying the action to fight defensively wouldn't work unless it was carrying over from a previous round.
Shadow fighting an imaginary target seems legit to me as it is a declared (spent) action. It is essentially a weapon flourish and declaration to be on guard (like total defense with less return). My halfling bodyguard uses it since total defense removes my ability to make the aoo's needed to use the feat.
Otherwise he is a bodyguard that is always caught off guard unless he charges into a fray and abandoning his squishy companions.
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beside the readying action component, what i am trying to figure out is if i can use it or not if i dont attack nothing/attack the empty space in front of me
also, i think that if you want use a defensive action, you can just adopt "fight defensively" or "full defense"(not requiring any kind of declaration, those 2 are actually a declaration for themselves)
since combat expertise is an action to be performed with an attack declaration (rules) we should try to define what is an attack declaration (and i didnt found nothing about this..):
1) so i could declare "i am going to attack", not specifying who/what and just kick in the CE feat
2) or i could declare "I am going to attack", not specifying who/what and if nothing shows up, i can attack thin air (kickin in the CE feat)
3) or, third, i can declare "i am going to attack" and need to attack effectively someone/something
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My bad, I got off course since I only use combat expertise when already fighting defensively.
I would adjudicate it the exact same way as fighting defensively.
You must attack something since the ac is contingent on the - to hit.
You can ready an action to attack with it but the ac don't factor in until the attack is made so you are better off attacking the air or going total defense.
In short, you made the right call. Readying an action comes at a cost. If the required conditions don't come up, it never goes off. He could have declared total defense or attacked an empty square w/Fighting Def & CE if all he wanted was the AC.
My bad, I got off course since I only use combat expertise when already fighting defensively.
Thank you for mentioning that!
I had misremembered the restriction from Total Defense ("You can't combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat") and was incorrectly applying that to my characters that fight defensively.
This changes everything! Well, my AC at any rate. :-)
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Personally, I would consider Combat Expertise to be active from the point at which you ready an action to make a melee attack. This is based on how I interpret the spirit of the rule.
I believe that the reason Combat Expertise functions only when declaring an attack is to prevent someone from benefiting from Combat Expertise while doing something other than attacking in melee, such as casting a spell or using a supernatural ability.
If you ready a melee attack, you are not doing anything other than attacking in melee. You might not actually get the attack (as is the risk with readied actions) but you are committed to melee combat, and if you declare that you are using Combat Expertise from the point at which you ready the attack you have committed to a defensive strategy. You are taking a combat stance that is well suited to defense, and have a melee weapon prepared to ward off attack.
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the problem isnt attacking one square with someone in or not
is attacking a square (space)
if you are interacting with yourself alone (kata) you arent actually fighting nothing
if there is an opponent, it's a complete different thing
this is why in martial arts you have both kind of competitions
kata's and kumite.