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I have come up with an idea to give gold and silver a more apropriate value inside the game.
I have never liked how all versions of D&D thru the ages have portraited the economy of a medieval world. There's too much gold and silver around, peasants have easy access to gold/silver and gold and silver coins overflow the game world.
Historically gold was always the currency of high profile merchants and nobles/kings and most of the time people would not have gold in the pockets. Copper and silver coins where more commom, with copper being more mainstream.
Just think about it, gold is a precious metal and it is so because its rare to find. Silver to a lesser degree is the same, but at the same time is much more abundant. However in the game characters by lower mid-levels (4th-6th) are suposed to have equipments/money in the dozens of thousands of gold coins. Its like gold is easy to find and thus have little to no value at all.
My idea is to increase the ratio of conversion from the current 10:1 to 100:1.
That way a silver coin would be worth 100 copper coin and gold coins would be worth what they should.
Of course that also means that the current prices for items in the game should be reworked to reflect that idea. Right now I have that simple formula for convertion:
Prices in cp = stay the same
Prices in sp = multiply by 5 and transform into cp
Ex. 2 sp = 10 cp
Prices in gp = transform into sp.
If for some reason the final price surpases 100, you just divide the value by 100 and then convert it to the higher currency.
Ex. 750 gp = 7 gp and 50 sp
Of course this is only a quick and dirt solution and a revision of some of the items price is in order but that would in my opinion be a matter of taking a look at some and adjust it.
Rather than change everything you could make it so that gold coins are not really gold, just like nickles are not really nickel. I personally say that both gp and sp are half copper and they are small, like a dime but thinner. It still doesn't make it close to real world metal values but it makes me feel better with minimal work.
honestly, we just handwave a lot of the 'economic' issues in the game - because game.
The most 'accurate' way to deal with this is to just not USE gp much in the game. Changing the math involved will just shift the issue. Don't give a bunch of gp as loot, give out gems, or other 'valuables'. But now you're bringing haggling up higher in the amount of gametime - so only look into this if your players WANT to be haggling every time they buy something.
Rather than change everything you could make it so that gold coins are not really gold, just like nickles are not really nickel. I personally say that both gp and sp are half copper and they are small, like a dime but thinner. It still doesn't make it close to real world metal values but it makes me feel better with minimal work.
The problem is that dipped coins only appeared around 18th to 19th century and even so in smaller quantities. We are talking about an 13th to 15th century that is the classical medieval world
honestly, we just handwave a lot of the 'economic' issues in the game - because game.
The most 'accurate' way to deal with this is to just not USE gp much in the game. Changing the math involved will just shift the issue. Don't give a bunch of gp as loot, give out gems, or other 'valuables'. But now you're bringing haggling up higher in the amount of gametime - so only look into this if your players WANT to be haggling every time they buy something.
Actually the designers expect us to use the system. The fact that most people dont use it is a shame.
Money, gems, jewery and etc were means by rewarding the players and thus allow then to buy better equipments or other things.
There's an entire list of good and services to be used that range from simple inn stay to even fees to use carriages around a city.
Its not haggling. Its a way to make the system makes sense and at the same time make the players think more before expending their hard worked money.
I am working on a list of all the items of the Ultimate Equipment with the prices adjusted to that idea of mine.
So far I have calculated that a person, living on a commom room in a inn for 1 month, having 3 meals a day (breakfast, lunch, dinner) and taking 2 baths per week (remember... middle age) would expend around 19 sp. That dont take into account drinks, entertainment or anything else besides inn stay, baths and food.
There is a 'cost of living' section in the Gamermastering section of the rules. An 2 baths a week is WAY overestimating the cleanliness of the middle ages.
I like this. The 100:1 ratio makes gold a LOT cooler when you find it, especially if you don't change the treasure generators...
I don't do anything like this in my game, but have been thinking about it.
Two thumbs up for this idea, very cool.
Rather than change everything you could make it so that gold coins are not really gold, just like nickles are not really nickel. I personally say that both gp and sp are half copper and they are small, like a dime but thinner. It still doesn't make it close to real world metal values but it makes me feel better with minimal work.The problem is that dipped coins only appeared around 18th to 19th century and even so in smaller quantities. We are talking about an 13th to 15th century that is the classical medieval world
I was thinking more alloyed than dipped. Roman coins had increasingly less and less gold/silver content as the empire progressed. Or course that also may have contributed to their collapse so maybe not the best example. Electrum was used for coins back in 6th century BC according to Wikipedia, which while not a perfect source is sufficient for identifying plausibility.
EDIT: I see RDM42 actually already made that point with a link and everything, thank you.
If you want a more realistic economy you are going to either play E6 or remove the buying/crafting of magic items that takes a hoard of gp. Wealth is used as a balancing mechanic in Pathfinder so it is necessarily non-linear wealth by level which means that at high levels it get's a bit ridiculous. Of course that is part of the fun Gygax wanted piles and piles of gold in his original game but I know it's not for everyone.
There is a 'cost of living' section in the Gamermastering section of the rules. An 2 baths a week is WAY overestimating the cleanliness of the middle ages.
To say they were not concerned with cleanliness would be an error.
Rather it would be more appropriate to say that private bathing was a thing of luxury.
I like this. The 100:1 ratio makes gold a LOT cooler when you find it, especially if you don't change the treasure generators...
I don't do anything like this in my game, but have been thinking about it.
Two thumbs up for this idea, very cool.
That would not be totally apropriate since the generators gives lots of gp and all the reference values are in gp because of the original 10:1 ratio.
If gold was that commom it would have the same value as copper or none at all.
If you want a more realistic economy you are going to either play E6 or remove the buying/crafting of magic items that takes a hoard of gp. Wealth is used as a balancing mechanic in Pathfinder so it is necessarily non-linear wealth by level which means that at high levels it get's a bit ridiculous. Of course that is part of the fun Gygax wanted piles and piles of gold in his original game but I know it's not for everyone.
Actually I understand the values for magic items as the difficulty of find the materials necessary to craft one. They are not cheap or easy to find mind you.
I remember the old Game Master Guide for AD&D 2nd Edition, in the section were it describes the crafting of magic items, that some materials (the most important) were not mundane and thus finding then could be an adventure on itself. I clear remember an example of unusual materials being a "Tear from a virgin in the funeral of a great hero". This sort of thing can be very difficult to acquire.
If you take into account that magic items (outside of potions and scrolls) are not suposed to be easy to find, that they are sometimes the stuff of legendary heros or great kings, then the prices of then become acceptable.
There is a 'cost of living' section in the Gamermastering section of the rules. An 2 baths a week is WAY overestimating the cleanliness of the middle ages.To say they were not concerned with cleanliness would be an error.
Rather it would be more appropriate to say that private bathing was a thing of luxury.
And a person living for 1 month in a inn is someone with money right? :)
Well, pilgrimages were a rather common thing, and generally treated like a huge holiday with sleeping in inns and what not regularly.
Private quarters were the expensive part.
But yes I agree that adventurers are going to be on the top end of the money scale generally.
Something else to consider is the fact that adventurers' wealth is tied up in their equipment. While the average NPC doesn't have as much equipment they often have other tangible assets that PCs generally don't have as much of, kingdoms, houses and what not...
Rather than change everything you could make it so that gold coins are not really gold, just like nickles are not really nickel. I personally say that both gp and sp are half copper and they are small, like a dime but thinner. It still doesn't make it close to real world metal values but it makes me feel better with minimal work.The problem is that dipped coins only appeared around 18th to 19th century and even so in smaller quantities. We are talking about an 13th to 15th century that is the classical medieval worldI was thinking more alloyed than dipped. Roman coins had increasingly less and less gold/silver content as the empire progressed. Or course that also may have contributed to their collapse so maybe not the best example.
The Roman Empire was becoming increasingly dependent on slavery, which is much more evil.
The Roman Empire was becoming increasingly dependent on slavery, which is much more evil.Rather than change everything you could make it so that gold coins are not really gold, just like nickles are not really nickel. I personally say that both gp and sp are half copper and they are small, like a dime but thinner. It still doesn't make it close to real world metal values but it makes me feel better with minimal work.The problem is that dipped coins only appeared around 18th to 19th century and even so in smaller quantities. We are talking about an 13th to 15th century that is the classical medieval worldI was thinking more alloyed than dipped. Roman coins had increasingly less and less gold/silver content as the empire progressed. Or course that also may have contributed to their collapse so maybe not the best example.
Actually their fall was due to multiple issues, and slavery was not one of then.
However that is a talk for another thread
The Roman Empire was becoming increasingly dependent on slavery, which is much more evil.Rather than change everything you could make it so that gold coins are not really gold, just like nickles are not really nickel. I personally say that both gp and sp are half copper and they are small, like a dime but thinner. It still doesn't make it close to real world metal values but it makes me feel better with minimal work.The problem is that dipped coins only appeared around 18th to 19th century and even so in smaller quantities. We are talking about an 13th to 15th century that is the classical medieval worldI was thinking more alloyed than dipped. Roman coins had increasingly less and less gold/silver content as the empire progressed. Or course that also may have contributed to their collapse so maybe not the best example.
Actually their fall was due to multiple issues, and slavery was not one of then.
However that is a talk for another thread
Honestly Golarion is looking at being technologically right in middle/end of the 15th century at the earliest. We have firearms making their robust appearance (as opposed to the simple firepots and what not) and the printing press is just starting to get going. In addition we have what very much appears to be the Age of Discovery going full tilt.
I think at most we could say that Golarion is very much exiting the Medieval period as people want to know it.
And gold is vastly overrated as a form of currency. It's value is as subject of fluctuation as any other good.
I have a thread (here) where I break out the economics of the pathfinder system. I find it actually holds up rather well, especially when you consider that the "dirt eating peon with nothing" archetype wasn't nearly as common as is often suggested.
The Roman Empire was becoming increasingly dependent on slavery, which is much more evil.Rather than change everything you could make it so that gold coins are not really gold, just like nickles are not really nickel. I personally say that both gp and sp are half copper and they are small, like a dime but thinner. It still doesn't make it close to real world metal values but it makes me feel better with minimal work.The problem is that dipped coins only appeared around 18th to 19th century and even so in smaller quantities. We are talking about an 13th to 15th century that is the classical medieval worldI was thinking more alloyed than dipped. Roman coins had increasingly less and less gold/silver content as the empire progressed. Or course that also may have contributed to their collapse so maybe not the best example.
Actually their fall was due to multiple issues, and slavery was not one of then.
However that is a talk for another thread
Honestly Golarion is looking at being technologically right in middle/end of the 15th century at the earliest. We have firearms making their robust appearance (as opposed to the simple firepots and what not) and the printing press is just starting to get going. In addition we have what very much appears to be the Age of Discovery going full tilt.
I think at most we could say that Golarion is very much exiting the Medieval period as people want to know it.
And gold is vastly overrated as a form of currency. It's value is as subject of fluctuation as any other good.
That is curious because all that is writen in the books suggest that firearms are still rare. As a whole the majority of the nations dont have access to firearms. Its so that way that the only ship in golarion that uses canons is of the pirate king in the Skull&Shackles adventure path and even so he only have it because of a especial deal with a armsdealer from Alkenstar. As for the printing press I wish to know from where you got that.
The value of gold was, and still is, a medium to measure wealth. Its so that all the countries in the world (our world) used the Gold Standard until around 1976. Fluctuation of gold value only started after that event, so it have less than 50 years of practice nowdays.
Ironically, a hollywood movie, Die Hard 3, played with that fact, since by the year of release of the movie, several countries still had their "national gold reserves" guarded in american banks.
Even today, long after it no longer was used for that purpose, gold is still a commodity stockpiled by governments as a last measure of control over their economies. The principle behind that is the old adage "Gold is Gold".
As for the "dirt eating peon with nothing" I agree, however that was not my point when I proposed the change in the system. My purpose was to give real value to precious metal that in the game were given the same treatment as less noble metals.
Gold and Silver have historically maintained a ratio of about 1:16
So 1 to 10 is actually not that unrealistic.
Also the Romans and many other ancient societies did use gold or silver coins in their currency. Its really not as rare as you might think. It is actually rarer in todays society, where the banks have concentrated all of it into vaults.
I know quite a bit about economics...and I won't bore you with the details about how artificially our current systems are constructed but to put it in historical perspective, or game perspective. Every time you see $1000 picture a gold coin, and every time you see $63 picture that as a silver ounce. Gold and silver are not that rare...just hoarded.
The Roman Empire was becoming increasingly dependent on slavery, which is much more evil.Rather than change everything you could make it so that gold coins are not really gold, just like nickles are not really nickel. I personally say that both gp and sp are half copper and they are small, like a dime but thinner. It still doesn't make it close to real world metal values but it makes me feel better with minimal work.The problem is that dipped coins only appeared around 18th to 19th century and even so in smaller quantities. We are talking about an 13th to 15th century that is the classical medieval worldI was thinking more alloyed than dipped. Roman coins had increasingly less and less gold/silver content as the empire progressed. Or course that also may have contributed to their collapse so maybe not the best example.
Actually their fall was due to multiple issues, and slavery was not one of then.
However that is a talk for another thread
Well now I have no use for this thread, so I will hide it.
Don't send me a PM asking why I hid it because I stopped reading thoes.
Gold and Silver have historically maintained a ratio of about 1:16
So 1 to 10 is actually not that unrealistic.
Also the Romans and many other ancient societies did use gold or silver coins in their currency. Its really not as rare as you might think. It is actually rarer in todays society, where the banks have concentrated all of it into vaults.
I know quite a bit about economics...and I won't bore you with the details about how artificially our current systems are constructed but to put it in historical perspective, or game perspective. Every time you see $1000 picture a gold coin, and every time you see $63 picture that as a silver ounce. Gold and silver are not that rare...just hoarded.
I never said they dindt use then, just that gold coins were not that commom in the hands of people that were not high profile merchants or noblemen.
Also my idea is to make gold into a more high value and less abundant on the streets.
Um... no value is always a measure of one good against another. Since all values are relative to what they are measured against all values are in flux. It's absolutely false to claim the value of gold has not fluctuated, since the amount it took to buy any given good has changed with time both before and after the USA left the gold standard.
The only way you can say the price of gold has never changed is if you say the price of gold is the only constant value in the world.
Which quite frankly is... nuts to say the least (and also wrong).
You may be better served by simply adding a new coinage, such as Nickel between Copper and Silver, bumping silver, gold, and platinum up an extra unit of 10.
I usually go the opposite direction and add a few types of exotic new metals or coins onto the end of platinum that only the very wealthy trade in.
You may be better served by simply adding a new coinage, such as Nickel between Copper and Silver, bumping silver, gold, and platinum up an extra unit of 10.
I usually go the opposite direction and add a few types of exotic new metals or coins onto the end of platinum that only the very wealthy trade in.
Back in my day we called those gems. And we liked them. We loved them.
Back in my day we called those gems. And we liked them. We loved them.
I've tried doing that before too, but I find a lot of players have trouble grasping the concept so I just started using standardized coins at higher values.
Another option I have seen used in game is non metal currencies. One of the games I play in uses plaster currency with the denominations imprinted into the face of the currency. The central bank of the kingdom holds all the gold and platinum in its vaults, or at least that is what we are told.
This opens the game up for some interesting uses of counterfeiting
Back in my day we called those gems. And we liked them. We loved them.
I've tried doing that before too, but I find a lot of players have trouble grasping the concept so I just started using standardized coins at higher values.
Another option I have seen used in game is non metal currencies. One of the games I play in uses plaster currency with the denominations imprinted into the face of the currency. The central bank of the kingdom holds all the gold and platinum in its vaults, or at least that is what we are told.
This opens the game up for some interesting uses of counterfeiting
Awesome, I've done gems, artwork, and even scrolls as wealth before.
Shrink item was actually a commodity driver too -- being able to give someone a cloth that you can throw down and turns into a pile of bullion is really handy.
Um... no value is always a measure of one good against another. Since all values are relative to what they are measured against all values are in flux. It's absolutely false to claim the value of gold has not fluctuated, since the amount it took to buy any given good has changed with time both before and after the USA left the gold standard.
The only way you can say the price of gold has never changed is if you say the price of gold is the only constant value in the world.
Which quite frankly is... nuts to say the least (and also wrong).
I never said it never fluctuated. In fact I never mentioned that idea in my post. From where you get that impression?
What I said, and you link confirmed, is that the value of gold stayed stable for large periods of time (almost 100 years in the case of your table).
The trust people had in the value of gold and its uses as a universal medium for business and measure of wealth came from that fact that gold was always valued the same (more or less).
Fluctuation of gold value only started after that event, so it have less than 50 years of practice nowdays.
This right here is the main thing I was taking exception with as it wasn't true, and implies that historically it has kept the same value.
In fact the price of gold in comparison to other measures of wealth (bonds, and the like) during the past 200 years would have been a very poor investment.
Mostly I just want to point out that the "gold bugs" so to speak are giving gold much more worth than it honestly deserves/historically has had.
As to the thread I posted and the peon bit -- I apologize, that wasn't directed at you, just a general information bit to help with the thread in overall with food for thought.
Fluctuation of gold value only started after that event, so it have less than 50 years of practice nowdays.This right here is the main thing I was taking exception with as it wasn't true, and implies that historically it has kept the same value.
Ok got it and sorry if my statement implied that. English is not my native language.
In fact the price of gold in comparison to other measures of wealth (bonds, and the like) during the past 200 years would have been a very poor investment.
Mostly I just want to point out that the "gold bugs" so to speak are giving gold much more worth than it honestly deserves/historically has had.
As to the thread I posted and the peon bit -- I apologize, that wasn't directed at you, just a general information bit to help with the thread in overall with food for thought.
You are talking about return in investments. Ok, but that is not my issue here. Stocks and everything related to it as we know it, is something that dont appear until the 17th century. But again that is not the issue with this thread.
I am talking about value of gold thru the middle ages, which is the core of the pathfinder campaing and any other D&D like games.
My intent is to emulate the fact that normally peasants and most merchants at the time dindt carried gold coins in their pockets or even made transactions using real gold.
Gold was used as a reference most of the time and the only onles to really deal with gold were high profile merchants, nobles and kings.
I have finished the table, but I dont know how to post it here for you guys to evaluate it. Any sugestions?
Google documents and share the link.
Ok, hope I have done everything ok
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QMOkSEWUp3Aoyjgk9U94Iqcg09-ixV80qBg dcLybW4s/edit?usp=sharing
Three things I should mention
1st - I have no idea on how to stipulate values to base materials like the ones presented in the table 2-11 Trade Goods.
2nd - I have been arbitrary towards the prices of transportation because it deal with profit margin of the owner of the vehicle in question (and because I was a lot lazy on that part)
3rd - I keept the info on armors and weapons (AC bonus, and etc) as a way to help you guys evaluate the prices for each of then if compared between themself.
Feel free to analyse and suggest changes to any of the prices.
So basically the silver standard.
Assuming you do the same across the board with everything I think it'll work fine.
I wonder if anybody feels like looking up the weight and value of some historical coins as a point of reference. I began to do so and was struck by the fact that a Diocletian "solidus" gold coin was worth 10 times as much as an "argentius" silver coin which weighed about 1/96th of a (Roman) pound. Those weights and relative values seem very close to what's in the game. The argentius probably could have bought much more in its day than a "silver piece" could in Golarion though.
Long ago I played with a DM who used different coinages for each major city-state in his homebrew campaign world. Each currency had different names for the coins, and I think there were even fluctuating exchange rates. Another DM I play with currently started off his Mystara based campaign specifying different coinages for different areas but seems to have mostly forgotten about it recently.
So basically the silver standard.
Assuming you do the same across the board with everything I think it'll work fine.
My only concern is that by simple transforming the prices in sp to cp at the rate of 1:5 I would create some bizarre prices, either too cheap or too expensive for items that before you had to pay with silver to acquire.
Thats why I have come here to ask for opinions.
My easy peasy solution. change all standard gold prices to silver prices, and change the ratio of silver to copper from 1:10 to 1:100. gold takes the place of platinum at 10x silver's new value, and you can either dispense with platinum altogether, or make it 10x gold's new value.So basically the silver standard.
Assuming you do the same across the board with everything I think it'll work fine.
My only concern is that by simple transforming the prices in sp to cp at the rate of 1:5 I would create some bizarre prices, either too cheap or too expensive for items that before you had to pay with silver to acquire.
Thats why I have come here to ask for opinions.
That would make a simple poor meal in a inn (1sp original price) impossible expensive.