Even taking 4 levels of fighter will help in the long run with feats... but there are better ways to go. Rogue, dipping into swashbuckler may be a better option, if only for the level 1 deeds, and the weapon finesse, -- but maybe the best option would be either a slayer or ranger. Guides work much like stalkers - the concept would be that you pick 1 target and get bonuses to attack and damage against them (studied combat) to stack up the damage output with your dual wielding. Investigators also get this ability, but with a lower BAB they have to supplement it with their spells if they want to keep up. Then again, they're an int based caster, so (smart & roguish) with a lot of skills and magic, poison use, and studied strike (one time sneak attack, on a studied target, doesn't need to be flat-footed/flanked), they could work out for you.
Slayer's more like an in-you-face assassin type. Sneak attacks, but high attack bonuses. Basically, a ranger/rogue hybrid, without the spells. Fairly straightforward class, and you can pick up rogue talents (or the ranger combat styles, if you prefer, or some of both). Take your dualwielding feats/ style, pick a studied target: get a +1 to hit, damage, bluff, knowledge, sense motive, survival, perception, and dcs of slayer abilities against that target, +1 more per 5 levels (+3 at level 10 if you're pure slayer, basically.) With each upgrade, you can study another target at the same time, swift action. Auto study on a successful sneak attack. Advanced rogue or ninja talent at level 10.
Ranger guide works similarly, but can only mark one target at a time, though the bonuses are much higher. +6 to hit and damage (no skill boosts, but for pure dps, a decent add. Guides lose evasion/improved evasion, and the animal companion, but they gain the ability to grant a bunch of skill and init bonuses to all their allies when in favored terrain, as well as the ability to cover their tracks. Also, ranger spells.
Those two classes might be too outdoorsy and not social enough for you.
A straight two weapon fighter build might be your thing - high bab, plus the ability to move and then take two attacks as a standard action. Flat +2/+2 attack and damage at level 9 as well, at level 7 a +2 dodge ac when making a full attack (+3 at 11) and at 11, reduced dual wield penalties (only -1, or you can use normal sized weapon - such as a longsword or scimitar- at the light weapon penalty instead.)
Lots of feats. Of real interest - at level 13, when you make an attack of opportunity, you can attack with both weapons, and at 15 you practically eliminate all dual wield penalties. 19 makes this all much better too - when taking a full attack action, anyone who attacks you provokes an attack of opportunity. Still, very light on the rogueyness, but if you had a high int, you might make up for some of the lack of class skills. Maybe dip into a level or two of rogue to open up some class skills and pick up d6 sneak attack, or evasion? 1 rogue/9 two hand fighter still allows for the move/double attack, which really helps since more often than not, you'll be killing enemies fast enough to require you to move on.
Feats: deadly agility (dex to damage, no offhand damage penalty; requires weapon finesse), weapon finesse, absolutely of course all the normal dual wield feats. combat expertise, improved trip (keep em on their back, sos you dont have to chase after em) and/or disarm, and if you go the fighter route - weapon focus, weapon specialiation, two weapon defense. That's more than enough feats to swallow up all the picks you can get, unless you took fighter, in which case you may have a couple still free.
You could still take some of those feats with the investigator, which, like the guide and stalker, gets a +(one half of investigator level) to hit and damage a studied target, but it only lasts as many rounds as you have INT bonus. However, they also get elixirs, and use the alchemist list for spells. Poison use too, and the aforementioned studied strike. Having arcane magic allows to also add in the Arcane strike feat, which is another +1-5 damage your attacks. Hard to excel in dualwielding though, with its copiously heavy feat demands.
Alternately, if you want some casting, a vivisectionist alchemist. Sneak attack instead of alchemy bombs. But both the investigator and alchemist have a major problem; potions require hands.... There are tricks to get around it, - take the infusion discovery, and "cast" your elixirs before the fighting, then store them in a handy haversack or one of those gloves of holding thingies - drop a weapon, draw a potion/drink as a move action, then grab the weapon again, or store the weapon in the glove, draw the potion/drink, bring back the weapon again etc... but it may feel like too much of a hassle to go through all that.
Anyway, my vote for dual wielder/roguey type is to just take the fighter with a couple levels of rogue sprinkled in, take a minimum 14 int, and 16 dex. 10 in the other stats. (all around average, but quick and clever). If possible, take some skill feats to boost up the ones you like. At level 10/ 10 ranks in a skill, a lot of those skill feats get the x2 boost (+3 becomes +6, etc). Having 8 or 9 levels of fighter in there at the start of the game will give you a lot of feat power, and I'd seriously suggest investing some of your starting cash on some stat boosts and a pair of decent weapons. Even +1 weapons with some elemental damage would be a big benefit.
anyway, that's just a few ideas, hope one of em hits the mark.
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Does it have to be a DEX based build? Going STR based and using a class like Ranger or something that lets you skip the prerequisites for TWF feats will probably do more damage in the long run. It will also save you feats or gold, or both, as you don't have to worry about Weapon Finesse and getting DEX to damage (either via feat or the Agile enhancement).
If you want to do TWF it does become feat intensive. If you're going DEX based you may find you need to go fighter in order to get all the feats you need, and be able to add some feats for flavour. That's not necessarily a bad thing either. Weapon Trainging and Gloves of Dueling are nice!
A 15-point buy dex-based two-weapon build with no strength that doesn't use a dex-to-damage feat or ability is either going to deal really mediocre damage, or will need to put Agile on two weapons, which just eats resources that could be making them better (extra enhancement or damage).
Deadly Agility works well, but it's third-party stuff rather than actual Paizo so....
There's a rules loophole in the Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler archetype that lets you use dex-to-damage with any weapon by level 4, so that could work.
Wielding two rapiers with Fencing Grace or two Aldori dueling swords with Slashing Grace works; you pay an extra penalty for using two one-handed weapons, but in exchange your main problem is solved. Assuming you're using a Fighter loaded up on bonus feats and weapon training and such, the -2 isn't really that critical. A level of Swashbuckler also works to expand possible weapon choices, though light weapons are still out.
The Two Weapon Warrior Fighter archetype gains the ability to make a standard attack with both weapons, which means that by level 11 you can go mainhand - offhand - two weapon rend with a single attack action. Two Weapon Warrior also eventually reduces the penalty for using two one-handed weapons.
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On the other hand with a Dagger and the trait 'River Rat' you get a flat +1 bonus to damage that stacks with everything, is multiplied on a crit, applies equally to your off-hand, and your weapon (being a Dagger) has a range increment - which makes it more versatile.
When compared to the higher threat range Kukri, the Dagger + River Rat do more DPR until your static bonuses that get critiplied are into the double digits (like +13 or +14 or so, if I recall).
It's probably pretty easy for a Ranger or Fighter to get those static bonuses high enough. But for a class whose extra damage is not critiplied and who do not get free martial proficiency, the kukri is actually probably a worse choice than the trusty old dagger.
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I need help building a character who focuses on fighting with 2 kukri( short-sword or dagger) based on dex, he must be smart, roguish and at the same time disciplined( he was a general warrior time ago).10 level and stats 15 point build, but i really need an advice on class/classes and feats.
A few problems. 15 point buy is rough enough and is going to be hard enough to pull off a dex build.
Money Building a dual wielding dex character requires Agile enchantments on 2 weapons.
A 15-point buy dex-based two-weapon build with no strength that doesn't use a dex-to-damage feat or ability is either going to deal really mediocre damage, or will need to put Agile on two weapons, which just eats resources that could be making them better (extra enhancement or damage).
Reiterating these facts.
Two weapon fighting is actually a very inconsistent form of combat. The dependance on full attacks is crippling. But this seems to be the main thing you want to do in combat so I will stick with it.
Elf Slayer 10
Str: 18, Dex: 14, Con: 12, Int: 12, Wis: 10, Cha: 8
Alternate Elf Traits: Envoy
Trait: Dirty Fighter
Feats:
1: Weapon Focus- Kukris
2: Style- Two Weapon Fighting
3: Power Attack
5: Extra Slayer talent- Advanced Rogue Talent- Opportunist (Ex)
6: Style- Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7: Iron Will
9: Improved Critical- Kukris
10: Style- Two Weapon Rend
Talents:
2: Style- Two Weapon Fighting
4: Trapfinding
6: Style- Improved Two Weapon Fighting
8: Slowing Strike
10: Style- Two Weapon Rend
10: Opportunist (Ex)
Skills are 6+Int(1)
Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Those are ALL class skills with this Build. Lets not forget the bonuses Gained from Studied Target. +3 to bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival checks attempted against that opponent, and a +3 bonus on weapon attack and damage rolls against it. The DCs of slayer class abilities against that opponent increase by 3.
That is as Smart, Disciplined, and Roguish The class can get for a two weapon fighting type. He is an elf so it can make sense he was a general for a good portion of his life since his life is so long.
Remember since your starting at 10 you can cheaply Build Like I did and take advanced talents. I tried not to abuse that too much.
With this build your going to be doing very decent damage without SA...but when you get SA your damage will be very respectable.
You could still take some of those feats with the investigator, which, like the guide and stalker, gets a +(one half of investigator level) to hit and damage a studied target, but it only lasts as many rounds as you have INT bonus. However, they also get elixirs, and use the alchemist list for spells. Poison use too, and the aforementioned studied strike. Having arcane magic allows to also add in the Arcane strike feat, which is another +1-5 damage your attacks. Hard to excel in dualwielding though, with its copiously heavy feat demands.
Sadly investigators (and alchemists) don't qualify for Arcane Strike because elixirs aren't spells.
You could still take some of those feats with the investigator, which, like the guide and stalker, gets a +(one half of investigator level) to hit and damage a studied target, but it only lasts as many rounds as you have INT bonus. However, they also get elixirs, and use the alchemist list for spells. Poison use too, and the aforementioned studied strike. Having arcane magic allows to also add in the Arcane strike feat, which is another +1-5 damage your attacks. Hard to excel in dualwielding though, with its copiously heavy feat demands.Sadly investigators (and alchemists) don't qualify for Arcane Strike because elixirs aren't spells.
nooooo >.< dang... i have a newer player in one of my games, she's gonna be a sad panda when I tell her -- well, she's been playing with it, and she's still not so overpowering that she's out dpr'in the barb dualwielder in the party... I'll have to let it sit until the game ends.
Anyway, still, if you're doin the dual wield thing, those flat hit/damage bonuses that slayers, investigators, and rangers get (favored enemy, or ranger's focus if they're guides) can really add up the damage, especially when they start getting enchants on their weapons and the better dual wield feats. Only problem is that once they take an opponent down, if nothing's adjacent, I've got no advice how to transfer them around the battlefield to continue the full attack - they just can't do it like a magus can. But hey, Two Weapon Fighter would be utterly useless if they could, compared (with the possible exception being their 19 ability)
Useful advice
Alternately, if the Slayer doesn't do it for you, the Guide, Skirmisher and Urban Ranger archetypes can be used in part or all together to do the same thing with a Ranger, swapping out the Favored Enemy, Spellcasting and nature themed stuff in exchange for improved combat ability, some really nice battle and skill 'tricks' (like double-rolling skills at key moments or free-action entangling an enemy with a weapon strike), and what amounts to honorary Rogue status with the Urban Ranger.
When you put Guide and Skirmisher together, a Ranger is transformed into a very clever, wary and dangerous combatant and strategist. The Guide also has the feature of granting Favored Terrain bonuses to allies, which is quite appropriate here.
I need help building a character who focuses on fighting with 2 kukri( short-sword or dagger) based on dex, he must be smart, roguish and at the same time disciplined( he was a general warrior time ago).
10 level and stats 15 point build, but i really need an advice on class/classes and feats.
WARPRIEST
Race Weapon Finesse
CL1 Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Kukri) | Kukri damage: 1d6
CL2 | 1d6
CL3 Dual Enhancement | 1d6
CL4 | 1d6
CL5 ??? | 1d8
CL6 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Specialization | 1d8
CL7 ??? | 1d8
CL8 | 1d8
CL9 ???, Improved Critical | 1d8
CL10 | 1d10
CL11 ??? | 1d10
CL12 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus | 1d10
nooooo >.< dang... i have a newer player in one of my games, she's gonna be a sad panda when I tell her -- well, she's been playing with it, and she's still not so overpowering that she's out dpr'in the barb dualwielder in the party... I'll have to let it sit until the game ends.You could still take some of those feats with the investigator, which, like the guide and stalker, gets a +(one half of investigator level) to hit and damage a studied target, but it only lasts as many rounds as you have INT bonus. However, they also get elixirs, and use the alchemist list for spells. Poison use too, and the aforementioned studied strike. Having arcane magic allows to also add in the Arcane strike feat, which is another +1-5 damage your attacks. Hard to excel in dualwielding though, with its copiously heavy feat demands.Sadly investigators (and alchemists) don't qualify for Arcane Strike because elixirs aren't spells.
Yeah, I really miss the old SLA rules when it comes to Arcane Strike.
Anyway, still, if you're doin the dual wield thing, those flat hit/damage bonuses that slayers, investigators, and rangers get (favored enemy, or ranger's focus if they're guides) can really add up the damage, especially when they start getting enchants on their weapons and the better dual wield feats. Only problem is that once they take an opponent down, if nothing's adjacent, I've got no advice how to transfer them around the battlefield to continue the full attack - they just can't do it like a magus can. But hey, Two Weapon Fighter would be utterly useless if they could, compared (with the possible exception being their 19 ability)
One way to address this issue would be with a dagger wielding investigator. The Two Weapon Fighting feats provide extra attacks for melee and thrown weapons, and daggers are in both categories. The Ranged Study feat lets you use Studied Combat and Studied Strike up to 30' away. It has Weapon Focus as a prerequisite, but since it benefits both your daggers when using melee or ranged attacks, you get a lot of mileage out of that +1 to hit.
At early levels the build might look something like this.
Human Investigator
Level 1: Weapon Finesse, TWF
Level 3: Mutagen, Weapon Focus
Level 5: Quick Study, Ranged Study
So now if no targets are within melee range, you use a swift action to select a more distant studied target and throw your daggers. (Returning enchantments or a blinkback belt are important once you start throwing enchanted daggers.) Between your high dex, mutagen (dex), cat's grace, weapon focus, and your studied combat bonus to hit, you will overcome most ranged penalties without needing all of the standard ranged feats. Later, when your studied combat bonus is even higher, you can add Piranha Strike (melee) or Deadly Aim (ranged) for some extra damage. It is a reasonably versatile build. Drink an Enlarge Person and/or Longarm elixir and you have a character that can throw weapons, TWF adjacent opponents, or even use reach tactics - all with the same weapons.
nooooo >.< dang... i have a newer player in one of my games, she's gonna be a sad panda when I tell her -- well, she's been playing with it, and she's still not so overpowering that she's out dpr'in the barb dualwielder in the party... I'll have to let it sit until the game ends.You could still take some of those feats with the investigator, which, like the guide and stalker, gets a +(one half of investigator level) to hit and damage a studied target, but it only lasts as many rounds as you have INT bonus. However, they also get elixirs, and use the alchemist list for spells. Poison use too, and the aforementioned studied strike. Having arcane magic allows to also add in the Arcane strike feat, which is another +1-5 damage your attacks. Hard to excel in dualwielding though, with its copiously heavy feat demands.Sadly investigators (and alchemists) don't qualify for Arcane Strike because elixirs aren't spells.Yeah, I really miss the old SLA rules when it comes to Arcane Strike.
Anyway, still, if you're doin the dual wield thing, those flat hit/damage bonuses that slayers, investigators, and rangers get (favored enemy, or ranger's focus if they're guides) can really add up the damage, especially when they start getting enchants on their weapons and the better dual wield feats. Only problem is that once they take an opponent down, if nothing's adjacent, I've got no advice how to transfer them around the battlefield to continue the full attack - they just can't do it like a magus can. But hey, Two Weapon Fighter would be utterly useless if they could, compared (with the possible exception being their 19 ability)One way to address this issue would be with a dagger wielding investigator. The Two Weapon Fighting feats provide extra attacks for melee and thrown weapons, and daggers are in both categories. The Ranged Study feat lets you use Studied Combat and Studied Strike up to 30' away. It has...
Good point. I've recently become enamored with the possibilities of Investigators, not the least of which is their poison use. Hard to take advantage of move/swift-action poison applications, though, if dual wielding. But anyway... an alternate to mutagen might be infusion (If you wanna hand out potions to your team). Also, If the thought of alternating between Melee and Ranged appeals, don't forget to take quick-draw around level 7 or 9: need it to use the full attack extra actions, and it's handy to be able to throw a dagger, then have another in your hand right away.
why is your alchemist even trying to out dpr a barbarian?
an alchemist is a support class, not a damager
why is your alchemist even trying to out dpr a barbarian?
an alchemist is a support class, not a damager
Who said anything about alchemists trying to out dpr barbarians?
why is your alchemist even trying to out dpr a barbarian?
an alchemist is a support class, not a damager
This is actually not true in the least.
An Alchemist can be just as - if not MORE - effective at DPR than a Barbarian due in large part to Mutagen, and assisted by lovely, lovely Bombs.
It's not what the class is intended for at first glance, but it is something it's quite deft at when you put a modicum of effort into it.
why is your alchemist even trying to out dpr a barbarian?
an alchemist is a support class, not a damager
This is actually not true in the least.
An Alchemist can be just as - if not MORE - effective at DPR than a Barbarian due in large part to Mutagen, and assisted by lovely, lovely Bombs.
It's not what the class is intended for at first glance, but it is something it's quite deft at when you put a modicum of effort into it.
True, alchemists can be ferocious. But I think Diminuendo must have posted in the wrong thread, because no one has posted an alchemist build here yet.
BTW, ignoring the OP's interest in kukris, do you think it would be worth a dip into swashbuckler/daring champion to use slashing grace with sawtooth sabres for your warpriest build?
nooooo >.< dang... i have a newer player in one of my games, she's gonna be a sad panda when I tell her -- well, she's been playing with it, and she's still not so overpowering that she's out dpr'in the barb dualwielder in the party... I'll have to let it sit until the game ends.
and Barbarians are full bab, alchemists are not, purely for that reason barbarians will do more dpr. yes, alchemists have bombs, but only so many, where as a good barbarian will be able to regenerate rounds of rage.
nooooo >.< dang... i have a newer player in one of my games, she's gonna be a sad panda when I tell her -- well, she's been playing with it, and she's still not so overpowering that she's out dpr'in the barb dualwielder in the party... I'll have to let it sit until the game ends.and Barbarians are full bab, alchemists are not, purely for that reason barbarians will do more dpr. yes, alchemists have bombs, but only so many, where as a good barbarian will be able to regenerate rounds of rage.
yeah, i know, I just mean that she's playin an investigator, using studied target with dualwield/deadly agility/arcane strikes. She's doing almost as much as the barb in our party, and really happy about it. She wants to be competetive, and I just don't have the heart to take arcane strikes away mid-game. It's kinda a d*** move, y'know?
I don't think any of them hybrid classes should be out performing pure melees in a purely melee field, not when they also get the versatility of magic, better skills/more skills, and game changer stat boosts like the mutagens (stacks with potions? whaaaa? cool.) But if they aren't even comparable it's often disappointing to the players, and that's why we're all here ,right, to have fun? Nobody wants to be the little teddy bear who tried hard, when the polar bear who lazily eats everything is standing right next to 'em.
nooooo >.< dang... i have a newer player in one of my games, she's gonna be a sad panda when I tell her -- well, she's been playing with it, and she's still not so overpowering that she's out dpr'in the barb dualwielder in the party... I'll have to let it sit until the game ends.and Barbarians are full bab, alchemists are not, purely for that reason barbarians will do more dpr. yes, alchemists have bombs, but only so many, where as a good barbarian will be able to regenerate rounds of rage.
Ok, now I understand the confusion. Investigators are not alchemists. They are a different class with very different abilities. For example, they don't have bombs. And while BAB is an important factor in determining DPR, a higher BAB doesn't automatically mean greater DPR.
yeah, i know, I just mean that she's playin an investigator, using studied target with dualwield/deadly agility/arcane strikes.
I had to look up Deadly Agility. So you have a two-feat chain that gives you dex to hit and damage for all light weapons and no off-hand penalty when using TWF? That seems overpowered to me. I bet you don't have many strength-based characters in your campaign.