Mithral+Masterwork / Darkleaf Stacking, Clarity issue

[FinalScratch]

"Cost Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below."

"Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than steel but just as hard.

When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).

Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a quarterstaff cannot.) Mithral weapons count as silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."

So one of my DMs and I just had a very long discussion about this, I was taught and have always played with pathfinder, he's a 3.5 vet. The question is how large of a reduction to armor check penalty mithral armor effectively gives you. We each have our own school of thought.

The line of contention is "the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below". Now one naturally infers that this means the masterwork reduction to ACP (-1) is also included in the figures, and that mithral only gives a total reduction to ACP of 3. This is backed up by the stats on the specific magic items, elven mail and mithral full plate of speed. The line of thought being that since price is included, all things are.

His line of thought is that RAW, only the price is included for masterwork, and nothing says the reduction from masterwork is included. So in this scenario you get the 3 ACP reduction from mithral, +1 from Masterwork is 4. There's merit to this view when you look at materials like Greenwood, Living Steel, and Adamantine. All are also "Assume Masterwork" materials that give NO reduction to ACP, so upgrading your armor in all cases actually makes the ACP worse than normal masterwork armor. Since the cost, and as we inferred, other properties are included, they've actually lost the ACP reduction from masterwork. Greenwood in particular is living wood, why would it carry a higher ACP than dead wood, when it's more flexible? As an example.

So we're faced with two possibilities.

1. All properties of masterwork, not only price, are included in the "Assume Masterwork" materials. This means Mithral comes with the 3 reduction to ACP, but also means that every other "assume masterwork" material loses the benefit from masterwork armor, as none of them have a reduction to ACP listed (Exception Darkleaf, but that's just mithral for druids.)

2. Only the price of masterwork is included, all other benefits still apply. This means that Mithral is actually getting a reduction of 4 to ACP, and that Adamantine, Greenwood, Living Steel et cetera all keep the benefit of being masterwork, that is, the reduction of one to ACP.

There is the third possibility that the reduction from masterwork and mithral simply do not stack, but there's nothing written anywhere to suggest they wouldn't. For now we're playing with his ruling, as he's the DM and in the end it's only a +/-1. But we agree that this is a serious clarity issue that should be addressed, as the rules as written are currently unclear at best and confusing at worst. Thanks for reading the all of text, any opinions on the matter are appreciated.

[Diekssus]

Frankly, Masterwork mithral weapons would still have a enhancement bonus, something that is not subsumed within the mithral material quality. So it can be assumed that, if the rules are consistent, the material would not subsume any other masterwork qualities either. (as this would remove such a boon from masterwork, to be replaced with those described in the material)

However the specific item "elven chain" would contradict me. Elven Chain: "This extremely light chainmail is made of very fine mithral links. This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, including when determining proficiency. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 20%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +4, and an armor check penalty of –2."

Here it receives only a -3.

So While I think it is strange, Your GM is valid in his stance, and he in the end is the one making the call.

[FinalScratch]

Oh, I've no intention of trying to contradict him, my intention is to point out that the rules are as confusing as all **** and we both just wanted to see if we can get some neutral rulings. Best case, a Dev sees this, but unlikely

[Christopk-K]

FAQed for dev attention :-)

[wraithstrike]

When you use special materials you get what they say you get. You don't stack the benefits to get the normal -1 and another -3 from mithral.

Chainmail has an ACP of -5

Mithral says " maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0)."

-5 decreased by 3 = -2 ACP(same as Elven Chain)

There is no discrepancy.

Also only weapons receive an enhancement bonus. Armor just gets a lower ACP(armor check penalty).

[Nefreet]

FinalScratch wrote:

His line of thought is that *RAW*, only the price is included for masterwork, and nothing says the reduction from masterwork is included.

(emphasis mine)

This would be a good opportunity to lecture your GM that there is no such thing as "rules as written", and that he's really operating off of "rules as he interprets them". Interpreting the meaning of written text is something the human race is notoriously bad at, and there are entire linguistics studies dedicated to the topic.

We, as a forum community, would be better off if we eschewed the phrase "RAW" entirely.

In any case, your GM is incorrect.

[Joesi]

I think there's inconsistencies here regardless of which way the ruling goes. As pointed out in the original post, it doesn't make sense for many of the materials to have [hidden] armor check penalties. Paizo should address this, and even be a bit more clear that the given materials are already masterwork.

[Chess Pwn]

Things that are masterwork have the normal -1 to ACP since they are masterwork, the material doesn't change that, but mithral does. And instead of saying, this armor reduced ACP by 2 which stacks with the normal masterwork, or they say this armor reduced ACP by 3.