Eidolon "Rake" ability improvement


Rules Questions


How do you use "Improved Damage" evolution with it? For creatures in Bestiary it is easy - Rake in there states that it grants two claw attack. But eidolon evolution specifically calls those "rake attacks", not claws.
Should I go "Improved Damage: Rake" or "Improved Damage: Claws"?

Dark Archive

Rake is its own attack, just with a trigger condition (grapple) instead of attack roll. It must be improved separately from the claws. On the other hand, I do believe a Claw upgrade also applies to Rend, since it is based off claw damage.


Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:
Rake is its own attack, just with a trigger condition (grapple) instead of attack roll. It must be improved separately from the claws. On the other hand, I do believe a Claw upgrade also applies to Rend, since it is based off claw damage.

Does this also mean you can't use them on your pounce?

Dark Archive

Rather than being an actual attack, Pounce is a special type of charge that allows you to make a full attack at the end - you use your normal full attack routine with all of its bonuses, you just get to move first (plus the other charge mods like ac and attack). You can even combine them - if you get two claws in on a pounce, you get a rend just like normal, and each time you grapple (usually from using the Grab evolution with another attack), you get to add your Rake hits.


Sergeek The Mad wrote:
Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:
Rake is its own attack, just with a trigger condition (grapple) instead of attack roll. It must be improved separately from the claws. On the other hand, I do believe a Claw upgrade also applies to Rend, since it is based off claw damage.
Does this also mean you can't use them on your pounce?

Yes, Eidolon rake is a completely different power than the general critter power of Rake. Despite the name.


Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:
and each time you grapple (usually from using the Grab evolution with another attack), you get to add your Rake hits.

So it means rake can be used at the same time when I grab a creature? I don't need to wait till the next turn?


I'm also interested how many rakes can I get?
Quad eidolon has four legs - can I get four rakes then, getting this evolution twice?


Each evolution, unless specified, can only be taken once.

So you can only get 1 rake


shroudb wrote:

Each evolution, unless specified, can only be taken once.

So you can only get 1 rake

And one gore/bite/reach, then.

I really think they should overhaul the whole class, it is vague.

Dark Archive

Sergeek The Mad wrote:
So it means rake can be used at the same time when I grab a creature? I don't need to wait till the next turn?

Yes - per the wording of the Rake ability, you are granted the attacks when you succeed on a grapple, so they kick in immediately - you can do a standard action grapple, a grapple as part of a full attack, or a free grapple from Grab, and in any case, if you win the grapple, you get the Rake attacks.

No doubt Eidolons are confusing - one of Paizo's upcoming products, Pathfinder Unchained, is actually going to contain a rework of the Summoner class. Not to mention there is interaction between various books - for example, Bite does not have an explicit mention that it can be taken more than once, but that is in part because the evolution to add additional heads did not appear until a later book, and as a result multiple bit attacks are allowed as long as you have enough heads. But Rake is limited to being taken once.


Sergeek The Mad wrote:
shroudb wrote:

Each evolution, unless specified, can only be taken once.

So you can only get 1 rake

And one gore/bite/reach, then.

I really think they should overhaul the whole class, it is vague.

yes for the reach, no for the others.

the head evolution, which wasn't on the original book, but came on a later book (UM?) has this to say:

Quote:
An eidolon grows an additional head. The eidolon does not gain any additional natural attacks for the additional head, but the additional head does allow the eidolon to take other evolutions that add an additional attack to a head (such as a bite, gore, or breath weapon). This evolution can be selected more than once.

since specific trumps generic.

you CAN take multiple bites/gores/etc but you need an extra head for each set of attacks


Sergeek The Mad wrote:

How do you use "Improved Damage" evolution with it? For creatures in Bestiary it is easy - Rake in there states that it grants two claw attack. But eidolon evolution specifically calls those "rake attacks", not claws.

Should I go "Improved Damage: Rake" or "Improved Damage: Claws"?

It goes to claw as the rakes are specified to be claws in the description. It specifies rake attacks since they face limits that do not apply to other claw attacks. Rake is a subset of claw for this evolution.

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