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So, I have several questions regarding the way that the Maneuver Master does his combat maneuvers.
1. First of all the Maneuver Master Monk (MMM) gains the following ability:
At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry.
At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks.
At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks.
This ability replaces flurry of blows.
The FAQ states the following about Flurry of Blows:
A monk using flurry treats his BAB from monk levels as equal to his monk level. He still adds BAB from other sources (such as other classes or racial Hit Dice) normally to this total.
So a fighter 19/monk 1 has a normal BAB of +19. When he flurries, he treats his monk BAB as +1 (for his 1 level of monk) and still gets BAB +19 from his fighter levels, for a total flurry BAB of +20.
My first question is can a multi-classed Maneuver Master Monk add his BAB to determine how many attacks he makes in a Flurry of Maneuvers the same way that a mulit-classed Monk can for Flurry of Blows?
My feeling is that while it is not expressly stated as such that the intention of this class ability was to follow along the same lines as Flurry of Blows but with the limiting factor of having to only be maneuvers. However, I suppose it isn't stated outright. I don't know if there is some ruling somewhere that says that altered class abilities function as the normal class abilities but with whatever exceptions are stated within that ability or something to this effect.
2. Grapple Combat Maneuver states the following:
I understand that specific over-rides general and that with the MMM that he is allowed to make more than one Combat Maneuver in a turn. However, I feel that it is worth asking:
It says that you have to, "If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold." I assume that with the MMM that you do not have to spend a Standard Action each round to maintain a grapple? Would the edited rules be more like, "If you start your round grappling a creature you must spend your first attack in your Flurry of Maneuvers to maintain the grapple."? And then if you succeed at maintaining that grapple you can do one of the list of actions in that grapple?
Or is it just terrible and the Archetype falls completely on it's face after getting into a grapple? Does it make it's own class ability useless on following rounds after successfully using it?
3. Say you have the Constrict ability (for example via Anaconda's Coils Belt) and you are attempting to do the above mentioned Flurry of Maneuvers. Lets also say you started your turn grappling an opponent but do not have him pinned or anything else as part of that grapple.
For reference:
Constrict (Ex)*
*A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage). The amount of damage is given in the creature's entry and is typically equal to the amount of damage caused by the creature's melee attack.
Format: constrict (1d8+6); Location: Special Attacks.
This snakeskin belt’s buckle is shaped like a serpent’s head.
The wearer gains a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +2 competence bonus on grapple combat maneuver checks. Treat the enhancement bonus to Strength as temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn. In addition, the belt grants the wearer the constrict ability for 1d6 points of damage plus the wearer’s Strength modifier.
a. Could you use your first flurry maneuver to Pin your opponent and if so do you get to add your constrict damage to that maneuver?
b. What damage do you do? Do you do 1d6+str as indicated in the Anaconda's Coils Belt description? Do you do "damage caused by the creature's melee attack" as noted in the Constrict ability? Do you get to add anything to either? Examples:
Gloves of Dueling if you have the Weapon Training Feature from Fighter levels?
Dragon Style bonus to damage from a high Strength score?
Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike?
Enhancement bonuses to Unarmed Strikes?
What if you are a Dex based Grappler and you do not typically use Strength and have Weapon Finesse?
4. This is rather a general question about Combat Maneuvers. What types of bonuses add to Combat Maneuvers?
a. Does anything that adds to your "attack roll" add to Combat Maneuvers? For example, all of the things I just listed above under 3b? Everything, everything? Or are there some limitations?
b. While not directly adding to your CMB things that give your target negatives to CMD are effectively giving you a bonus. So I guess this question extends to things that give your target a negative to their CMD. I know most things state outright what negatives they give. Looking over the conditions section most of them are fairly straight forward. There are some confusing bits though. Examples:
If you look here it says, "Grappling does not deny you your Dex bonus to AC, whether you are the grappler or the target." I checked the source linked but it doesn't say that anywhere in the FAQ that I could find. So, um... what? Do you lose your Dex or not?
At the same link it also says, "Being pinned does not make you flat-footed, but you are denied your Dex bonus." Wait, what? Why make the distinction? Is it just to distinguish the difference between being able to make AoOs if you have Combat Reflexes?
Well, those things certainly are contradictions and make things about as clear as mud.
If you look here and scroll down to Combat Maneuvers it says, "Creatures that are size Tiny or smaller use their Dexterity modifier in place of their Strength modifier to determine their CMB." So then I assume that things that give negative modifiers to Dex will directly affect both their CMB AND their CMD?
5. Stunning Fist
Stunning Fist (Combat)
You know just where to strike to temporarily stun a foe.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next turn). A stunned character drops everything held, can’t take actions, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes a –2 penalty to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.
When can I use this? Can I use it as part of a Combat Maneuver? Combat Maneuvers are considered "attack rolls" right? Does that mean that if I had the Constrict ability and I started my turn in a grapple that I could declare a Flurry of Maneuvers and have my first attack be a Grapple Combat Maneuver and have Stunning Fist apply to that?
What about other Combat Maneuvers like Trip if you have Greater Trip?
6. Ok, this one is specific. I want to make sure I have my bonuses correct. Lets say that I start the turn already grappling my foe and have Improved Grapple. I want to try to Pin.
The foe has the following:
-4 Dex
-2 Attack Rolls
I would also have the following:
+5 Circumstance bonus to my grapple check because my foe did not break the grapple on his turn.
I am also grappled so I would get...what? -4 to Dex and -2 on Attack Rolls?
Improved Grapple gives +2
Since I am using a Flurry of Maneuvers I get a -2 to Attack Rolls
So if I read that right my opponent would be at -2 to their CMD (due to Dex loss) and I would be at a total of +3 to my CMB? And if I were a Dex based Grappler it would instead +1 to my CMB?
Either way... once I Pin my opponent we are BOTH denied our Dex bonus to AC, right? And we both would get -4 to AC. That would make both the grappler and the grapplee sitting ducks for Sneak Attacks. Hm. It seems that Pinned is a mixed bag of bonuses/minuses for both parties of a grapple.
7. Last question, I swear. (for now... ;) )
How can a PC gain the Grab ability if he doesn't have the ability to Wildshape or cast Transmutation spells turning into a creature that has it? Is there any way?
Ok, actually I got another one...
8. If I am an MMM and get Improved AND Greater Trip, Ki Throw and Binding Throw and Vicious Stomp .... how does this all work together?
Is it like this?:
a. Declare Flurry of Maneuvers
b. First Attack to Trip
c. Assuming success on the Trip attack, target provokes an attack from Greater Trip
d. Assuming success on the Trip attack, an Attack from Vicious Stomp is triggered
e. Assuming success on the Trip attack, Binding Throw gets triggered allowing me to use a Swift Action to basically get an extra Grapple Combat Maneuver
f. Finish with rest of Combat Maneuvers that happen after the first in your flurry
Assuming this is the case (if not please state why) I am fairly certain that the attack gained from d. (Vicious Stomp) has to be simply an Unarmed Strike. I suppose Stunning Fist could be added onto this. But what about the attack gained from c. (Greater Trip)? What can be done with that? Could it be a Grapple Combat Maneuver?
Also, that Swift Action attack gained from e. (Binding Throw), can that be any type of Grapple Combat Maneuver if they are already grappled?
Having Constrict from Anaconda Coils just further complicates the whole mess...
Maezer: What is your interpretation of what this means then?
...regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action.
Are you just pretending it doesn't say that then for doing a Combat Maneuver to continue your grapple?
On 6. why would I not get the -2 for grappled? It says right in the description that you BOTH gain the grappled condition, does it not? Is -2 to attacks not a penalty that the grappled condition applies?
Thank you for posting.
1: sadly, Maneuver Master is one of those things that works far, far better as a single level used for 'casual' maneuvering.
2: I don't see how one could really argue that maintaining a grapple with a grapple check isn't a combat maneuver and valid for Flurry of Maneuvers. Unfortunately, if you want to make use of Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler it's pretty useless to have Flurry of Maneuvers. Just to do the same thing with it you have to eat some savage penalties to CMB on a relatively weak class; see: 1.
BadBird, let me introduce you to Maezer.
I figured that there would be those who see it differently and I wanted to understand that logic. He would be a better one to explain that, though.
Maezer, thanx for clarifying your point on 6. You are correct, I think I overlooked the "except" section.
Going back, I'm still not sure what you meant on points 1-3. Particularly 1 and 3a.
1. Why, in your opinion, would you not get more maneuvers as your BAB increases in a Flurry of Maneuvers the same way a multi-classed monk would with Flurry of Blows?
3a. And with the Flurry of Maneuvers it states, "...regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action." Why would that not include the maneuvers to maintain a grapple? Specific over rides general, correct?
Aydin: Thank you for posting. Most of what you are saying confirms my opinions. I'll touch on a few things, though.
1. I wasn't even considering being able to tack it on with other things in a full round attack outside of just the maneuvers. I'm not sure if it works the way you are thinking but as it isn't my intention with the build I think I'll just avoid that part anyway. :)
2. So your answer is basically "Yes, so long as a grapple is one of the maneuvers done in the Flurry of Maneuvers sequence."? I can see that. I would probably just feel better having the first one be a check to maintain the grapple, but it would actually mechanically superior to do that last. In other words, it would be better to complete the other maneuvers while the target still has the Grappled condition thus making them and the final grapple check to maintain the grapple.
4. I wont argue you on this point. Instead I would rather ask where that clarification was made at. I do not want to do it incorrectly but as far as RAW goes this is what it says in Combat Maneuvers:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
I think that I would need to be convinced that the "weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver" wasn't your Unarmed Strike. This reasoning is mostly because if it isn't the Unarmed Strike that is being used to perform the maneuver... what IS being used?
Aydin: Ah, I see. So there hasn't been any official wording.
I will be following the basic build in this thread.
Maezer:
Neither the standard monk/nor the Maneuver master get the extra free attacks at levels 8 or 15 unless they have 8 or 15 levels of monk.
You are mistaken on this. See my second spoiler in my first post and my link to the FAQ where this is discussed. Consider this and let me know if it changes your mind about how Flurry of Maneuvers works.
The question at hand here, is can you use a free bonus action granted from doing something else to maintain a grapple.
That is not the question at all. I think you misunderstood what I was asking. Allow me to clarify:
If you start your turn with your opponent Grappled but not Pinned can you use one of the Maneuvers in your Flurry of Maneuvers to Pin your opponent (so far this is just question 2, the rest is what question 3 adds) and if so do you apply the Constrict damage to that attack if you have the Constrict ability?
In my experience the majority of GMs say the monster can't utilize the free action grapple from grab to maintain their grapple. So using the same logic I'd say the Maneuver master cannot maintain via this method.
I asked nothing about Grab except how you can obtain this as a character other than via turning into a creature that has it. That has nothing to do with a MMM maintaining a grapple via one of the attacks in a Flurry of Maneuvers.
FYI - I made a separate post about what adds to CMB here. I do not mind if you answer question 4 here, but the other thread may be more appropriate and will help to not drag down this own if debate gets heated.
Aydin: Thank you. So what is your opinion on question 3b then?
Gloves of Dueling if you have the Weapon Training Feature from Fighter levels?
Dragon Style bonus to damage from a high Strength score?
Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike?
Enhancement bonuses to Unarmed Strikes?
What if you are a Dex based Grappler and you do not typically use Strength and have Weapon Finesse?
Aydin: I understand that specific over rules general.
The problem here is that there are 2 things that are specific.
1. The Anaconda Coils Belt which states the constrict damage that you are doing.
2. Things that specifically change the damage caused by a creature's melee attacks.
I understand your interpretation. I could even get behind that being the base line. But if you read some of the abilities I posted it leaves things unclear. As an example consider Greater Magic Fang which says, "Alternatively, you may imbue all of the creature's natural weapons with a +1 enhancement bonus (regardless of your caster level)." Would you include that in the damage done with the Constrict ability? If so then could you just use an Amulet of Mighty Fist ("This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.")? What about Inspire Courage ("...+1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls.")?
Neither the standard monk/nor the Maneuver master get the extra free attacks at levels 8 or 15 unless they have 8 or 15 levels of monk.You are mistaken on this. See my second spoiler in my first post and my link to the FAQ where this is discussed. Consider this and let me know if it changes your mind about how Flurry of Maneuvers works.You are actually the one mistaken on this.
The BAB from other classes thing is only concerning gaining iterative attacks. It has nothing to do with the number of extra attacks Flurry gives you, that is defined entirely by class levels.
That is untrue. Again, I reference my second spoiler in my first post. Please read it.
So a fighter 19/monk 1 has a normal BAB of +19. When he flurries, he treats his monk BAB as +1 (for his 1 level of monk) and still gets BAB +19 from his fighter levels, for a total flurry BAB of +20.
It is not referring to iterative attacks, it is referring to the number of attacks you can make in a Flurry of Blows.
I think there's just been a misunderstanding. you're correct in your example, but because he's flurrying he'll have 2 more attacks (lv8 monk) and all attacks will take a -2 to them.
NikolaiJuno: Maybe I am mistaken as to what you mean, though. Iterative attacks are the number of attacks you gain in a turn. Flurry of Blows gives you additional attacks in a turn above and beyond what you gain through normally increasing your BAB.
... I am now a bit unclear as to what you means as far as the number of attacks gained in a Flurry of Blows.
Tell me your opinion on this:
if a Monk 8/Fight 4 were to make a Flurry of Blows he would have a normal BAB of +10. But for Flurry of Blows he would have a BAB of 12. How many attacks would this give him both inside a Flurry of Blows and outside?
I believe that he would normally get 2 attacks from iterative attacks at +10/+5. However, in a Flurry his BAB goes up to +12 thus giving him 4 attacks at +10/+10/+5/+5.
Do we agree on that?
Chess Pwn: Yeah, I noticed my error and corrected it by deleting my post and reposting this. Is this what you believe as well?
Also, as another example if you only ever put say 2 levels into Monk (mostly because that is my intention) would it look like this?
For a Monk 2/Fighter 4:
Normally his BAB would be +5 giving him iterative attacks of a single attack at +5, but in a Flurry this increases his BAB to +6 giving him a Flurry of Blows attacks of 3 attacks at +4/+4/-1.
And if those two examples are correct then - returning back to my original question - does this work the same way for Flurry of Maneuvers? So in my second example would I be able to get 3 Combat Maneuvers in a turn at +4/+4/-1?
It is in the post right above your last post, but I'll put it here:
Also, as another example if you only ever put say 2 levels into Monk (mostly because that is my intention) would it look like this?
For a Monk 2/Fighter 4:
Normally his BAB would be +5 giving him iterative attacks of a single attack at +5, but in a Flurry this increases his BAB to +6 giving him a Flurry of Blows attacks of 3 attacks at +4/+4/-1.
Wait...what? No, that doesn't look right at all.
For the moment, let us address simply Flurry of Blows: Did you read the second spoiler in my original post? It says:
A monk using flurry treats his BAB from monk levels as equal to his monk level. He still adds BAB from other sources (such as other classes or racial Hit Dice) normally to this total.
So a fighter 19/monk 1 has a normal BAB of +19. When he flurries, he treats his monk BAB as +1 (for his 1 level of monk) and still gets BAB +19 from his fighter levels, for a total flurry BAB of +20.
That should make a Monk 2/Fighter 4 have a +6 BAB for Flurry of Blows giving him +4/+4/+1, correct?
So why would this change for Flurry of Maneuvers then?
Dot.
NikolaiJuno: Oh. Oh, I see what you are saying. I read it a different way. I think you are right. So what you are saying is that you get your normal iterative attacks and then get your Flurry of Maneuvers after it?
Yeah, that does look right. I take it back, my mistake.
So that would make a Monk 8/Fight 4 have a Flurry BAB of +12 thus giving him 3 attacks at +10/+10/+5 with the second attack having to be a Combat Maneuver and either of the other two attacks being able to be a Combat Maneuver as well? But not both. And only if they can be done as an attack (like Trip, Disarm, Sunder or Quick Dirty Trick) rather than a standard action. Right?
Yep, I think we are on the same page now. I was originally mistaken thinking that it worked like Flurry of Blows but I see now that it is actually different and adds onto your normal iteratives.
The question at hand here, is can you use a free bonus action granted from doing something else to maintain a grapple.
As I read it, since Flurry of Maneuvers gives you "one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action", the question is "is maintaining a grapple with a standard action a combat maneuver?'.
Yeah, I had that question as well. I have to think that it is or the Archetype falls flat on it's face.
It seems to take a standard action to maintain the grapple, but there are other actions you can perform in that standard action. See here for the list.