Rogue + 1 level of snakebite striker brawler = win?

[Douglas Muir 406]

Dip a single level of snakebite striker brawler (SSB), then go straight rogue. Are you better off than straight rogue all the way? My tentative analysis is, at lower levels, yes, you clearly are; but at higher levels, meh, it's a wash.

At first level, taking SSB instead of rogue means you're giving up 4 skill ranks and trapfinding. In return, you get +1 BAB, +2 Fort, +2 hp, the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, and the ability to do d6 damage with your bare hands. Gotta say the advantage here is with SSB.

At second level the Rogue 1/SSB 1 loses Evasion and a rogue talent compared to the Rogue 2. That hurts. But: the RSSB now gets two sneak attack dice versus the straight rogue's single one. That's a pretty significant increase in damage output. (It's even better if you're taking the very popular knife master rogue archetype, as now you'll be gaining an extra d8 of SA damage instead of a d6.) The RSSB also has clearly better saves: +2/+4/0 vs. 0/+3/0. Evasion notwithstanding, pretty clearly this level also belongs to the RSSB.

Going forward, you will always be a level behind in terms of accessing rogue talents and other rogue abilities, and you'll never get those 4 skill ranks back. You'll also be down one level of favored class unless you're a half-elf. On the other hand, your saves will usually be better; you'll always keep those 2 extra hp; at 1st and every 4 levels thereafter you'll be +1 BAB; and at even numbered levels you will have an extra die of sneak attack damage.

Over time the extra die of SA damage will become less relevant -- getting 2d6 instead of 1d6 at second level is a big deal, while getting 9d6 instead of 8d6 at 16th level is rather less so. Similarly, the extra hp or two are significant at low levels, rather less so later on. Meanwhile, not getting advanced rogue talents as fast will become more of a disadvantage, as some of these talents are really quite attractive. At the highest levels the extra SA die may not be worth it.

TLDR: at low levels, dipping a single level of snake strike brawler is a very strong build strategy for a straight rogue. Over time the advantage gradually disappears, and at the highest levels it may even shift slightly back to the straight rogue.

Thoughts?

Doug M.

[Corvino]

It doesn't really mitigate the major weaknesses of the rogue class, which is what most multiclass shenanigans aim to do. You get more sneak attack but no additional ways to activate it.

[The Dragon]

Eh, rogues can flank in melee, I've rarely found getting sneak attack to be a problem.

[rorek55]

The easiest way to get sneak attack almost gaurenteed on intelligent enemies is improved two weapon feint, which RAW does not require TW feint o.0 I'm not complaining. You give up 1 attack on the full attack to make em flat footed to the rest.

So IMO a fighter dip is the best thing for a rogue. (The extra feat helps, +1bab,+2fort,+2hp)

[Just a Guess]

The Dragon wrote:

Eh, rogues can flank in melee, I've rarely found getting sneak attack to be a problem.

You can. But often that means getting inbetween the bad guys. Something not so good with low AC and low HP.

If you fight single enemies most of the time flanking is easy. With multiple enemies not so much.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Corvino wrote:

It doesn't really mitigate the major weaknesses of the rogue class,

Well, the question I'm trying to answer here is not "is this the best possible dip for a rogue" but rather "is this dip better than straight rogue".

Doug M.

[Play a Vivisectionist]

 

[Julix]

Vivisectinoists are banned in PFS right?

Also @ the Fighter dip for feat - what about normal brawler to keep martial flexibility? Or is that too few times / day to be worth it?

How about 2 levels for the flurry? I know daggers aren't on the list, but punching daggers are... would they benefit from the river rat trait?

[Cavall]

I'd say at lower levels 4 more skill points and trap finding is better.

[Secret Wizard]

Go straight Unchained Rogue. Faster DEX-to-damage, better debilitating strikes.