Quick damage optimization question

[Saldiven]

Assume two weapons are identical in statistics (dmg, weapon rules, relevant feats, enchantments, etc.) except for crit range:

A: (19-20) x2
B: (20) x3

Which one will consistently do more damage.

[kestral287]

They're identical until you start bringing in other factors. Most people probably prefer the 19-20/x2 though.

[RumpinRufus]

Mathematically, they will do the same amount of damage.

Realistically, if you are building for damage then x3 will often be overkill. The 19-20/x2 is better because you will have less wasted overkill damage.

There are also lots of feats, abilities, etc. that trigger on a crit, so for those the wider crit range is better.

[Saldiven]

Thanks, appreciate the info.

[strayshift]

The x3 may sometimes be overkill but there are also times when it brings the enemy much nearer to death by giving you massive damage thus exposing you to fewer attacks. I prefer a high multiplier as a player unless going for a critical feat build.

[RumpinRufus]

If your group uses Massive Damage rules then that would give a boost to the x3 multiplier.

[Rowe]

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=14Fmxv1kZSvm2AbZ0LGjyRQY2WvhkDj0Wpy 8al_bzoGs

[Matthew Downie]

x3 is also better for coup de grace.

[Pink Dragon]

I like x3 for the bigger splash when you do roll a critical.

[Saldiven]

@Rowe: That link doesn't work. Could you check it?

As I mentioned in the OP, I'm concerned about which is consistently better. If they're the same, then I will look at other variables to polish the build I'm looking at.

[Claxon]

It is mostly a matter of opinion. One is not clearly better than the other.

I prefer an increased threat range, as it feels more consistent than the higher multiplier weapon. With improved critical an 17-20 crit range just feels like it happens far more often.

[donato]

Saldiven wrote:

@Rowe: That link doesn't work. Could you check it?

Try this.

[strayshift]

donato wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

@Rowe: That link doesn't work. Could you check it?

Try this.

This all arrives at psychological attitude to probability and risk.

Three points:

a x4 weapon crit early in a fight often decides the fight for that opponent - try them against the players. The learning being that we start to have to factor in number and types of opponent to evaluate our weapon against: e.g. a high crit range weapon is better against a number of lower threat enemies and a high crit multiplier weapon could swing a major boss fight, but is not guaranteed to do so.

A high Ac opponent laughs at the higher crit range. A low hit point crit can 'waste' damage for the high crit weapon and the high range weapon alike (they are still dead so I don't see the difference apart from in raw mathematical terms of 'overkill').

Taking an enemy's offensive action out of the equation (i.e. they must heal or retreat) also has value, as a DM that is more likely to happen when the tide turns for that npc - again totally contextual and subject to the DM's 'style'. Again try high crit multiplier and range enemies against the pcs - when one pc is near death the whole party will go into 'emergency mode' to save them.

The maths is less than half the answer.

[Bandw2]

strayshift wrote:

donato wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

@Rowe: That link doesn't work. Could you check it?

Try this.

This all arrives at psychological attitude to probability and risk.

Three points:

a x4 weapon crit early in a fight often decides the fight for that opponent - try them against the players. The learning being that we start to have to factor in number and types of opponent to evaluate our weapon against: e.g. a high crit range weapon is better against a number of lower threat enemies and a high crit multiplier weapon could swing a major boss fight, but is not guaranteed to do so.

A high Ac opponent laughs at the higher crit range. A low hit point crit can 'waste' damage for the high crit weapon and the high range weapon alike (they are still dead so I don't see the difference apart from in raw mathematical terms of 'overkill').

Taking an enemy's offensive action out of the equation (i.e. they must heal or retreat) also has value, as a DM that is more likely to happen when the tide turns for that npc - again totally contextual and subject to the DM's 'style'. Again try high crit multiplier and range enemies against the pcs - when one pc is near death the whole party will go into 'emergency mode' to save them.

The maths is less than half the answer.

- x4 is always dramatically less likely than the 18-20, meaning overall across all fights, the 18/x2 will be better.

- if you opponent has high AC so your crit range is falling apart, what are you doing in melee/attacking that thing, run, oh god, run.

- x2 is often enough to get people going, especially if there are multiple crits in a match, which is more likely.

- the math is most of the answer actually, as for all the early x4's there are just as many fights without a crit at all, but the 18/x2 will be happening much more often, allowing you to crit across multiple enemies.

also, classes that want to get crit hits to refill pools, such as a swash or gunslinger, they want that crit range much more.

[strayshift]

Bandw2 wrote:

...

We shall agree to disagree of the basis of our different analysis and experience.

As I said though try the high multiplier/range against the players and see what works...

[kestral287]

strayshift wrote:

Three points:

a x4 weapon crit early in a fight often decides the fight for that opponent - try them against the players. The learning being that we start to have to factor in number and types of opponent to evaluate our weapon against: e.g. a high crit range weapon is better against a number of lower threat enemies and a high crit multiplier weapon could swing a major boss fight, but is not guaranteed to do so.

Counterpoint: you're equally likely to waste that crit late in the fight when an x2 would have done the job.

strayshift wrote:

A high Ac opponent laughs at the higher crit range. A low hit point crit can 'waste' damage for the high crit weapon and the high range weapon alike (they are still dead so I don't see the difference apart from in raw mathematical terms of 'overkill').

Counterpoint: As Bandw2 says, if they have an AC high enough that you miss on an 18, you have no business attacking them in melee. Unless you're fighting a literal turtle (as in it has insane AC but no real offense), anything capable of absorbing your shots with that degree of ease outclasses you significantly enough that you're cannon fodder.

strayshift wrote:

Taking an enemy's offensive action out of the equation (i.e. they must heal or retreat) also has value, as a DM that is more likely to happen when the tide turns for that npc - again totally contextual and subject to the DM's 'style'. Again try high crit multiplier and range enemies against the pcs - when one pc is near death the whole party will go into 'emergency mode' to save them.

Counterpoint: One is also likely to take an enemy's offensive action out of play by disabling them with an x2 crit, and can do that more often. This will not be the case against single strong enemies... but what does Pathfinder and action economy teach us about single strong enemies being threatening again?

Against the enemies that are more likely to present a difficult encounter, this point actually demonstrates the value of an 18-20/x2 weapon over an x4 weapon. Against lone, high-over-CR enemies an 18-20/x2 weapon is unlikely to bring an enemy into the danger zone... but these are the encounters that are demonstrably easier.