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And if you're doing much nat attacking - you might as well grab the Helm of the Mammoth Lord eventually.
Though really - with your BAB and using nat attacks as secondary swings and therefore at -5 to hit, you won't be hitting much with them.
More often than not if using studied target. You could also go with natural weapons combat style for multiattack
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More often than not if using studied target. You could also go with natural weapons combat style for multiattackAnd if you're doing much nat attacking - you might as well grab the Helm of the Mammoth Lord eventually.
Though really - with your BAB and using nat attacks as secondary swings and therefore at -5 to hit, you won't be hitting much with them.
Multi-attack would help - but this build has considerably less than mid BAB. I'm not saying it's not worth rolling the swings - just that you shouldn't expect many hits on anything but touch attacks, and it might not be worth the resources for an extra gore attack. (both gold and the slot used)
You will have to dip regardless Druid only gets one Sneak Attack DiceLook up the crocodile domain.
That's the thing that really gets me about this build - it doesn't seem like it should work at all, but it works so good.
Does it seem like Arcane Trickster levels would advance druid casting? No, not really.
Does it seem like a single-classed druid would be able to get Mage Hand and a 2nd+ level arcane spell? No, not really.
Does it seem like a druid would be able to get Sneak Attack +2d6? No, not really.
Does it seem like dual-wielding two different spells that provide touch attacks would work? No, not really.
Does it seem like Dervish Dance would benefit a spell like Flame Blade? I dunno, maybe?
Does it seem like a 6th-level druid should be able to use ITWF to get a second off-hand attack before he has an iterative with his main hand? No, not really.
But at the end of the day, everything comes together in a really awesome way.
And if you're doing much nat attacking - you might as well grab the Helm of the Mammoth Lord eventually.
Though really - with your BAB and using nat attacks as secondary swings and therefore at -5 to hit, you won't be hitting much with them.
The real advantage seems to be if I don't have time to get Flame Blade up (or before I can cast it,) I can use Frostbite with my bite/claw/claw, and use all three as primary attacks.
The fact that when I'm doing my touch attack routine, I can go for the free bite or claw is just gravy.
And honestly, my BAB isn't bad until I start taking AT levels at 7. Until then, I'm medium BAB with +4 Dex and a dedicated flank buddy, which isn't at all bad. But once I get to higher levels with a lot of Arcane Trickster mixed in and making natural attacks as secondary attacks, yeah, the bite is probably never going to land. But hey, it's free.
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And honestly, my BAB isn't bad until I start taking AT levels at 7. Until then, I'm medium BAB with +4 Dex and a dedicated flank buddy, which isn't at all bad. But once I get to higher levels with a lot of Arcane Trickster mixed in and making natural attacks as secondary attacks, yeah, the bite is probably never going to land. But hey, it's free.
True - and I was mostly commenting on the worth of getting The Helm of the Mammoth Lord for a gore attack. By the time you can reasonably afford it, your BAB will be pretty bad and it won't hit much. But you're right - the touch attacks are the build's bread and butter - any nat attacks you hit with are just the cherry on top. (Not that I think a cherry would go well on top of bread & butter.)
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But you're right - the touch attacks are the build's bread and butter - any nat attacks you hit with are just the cherry on top. (Not that I think a cherry would go well on top of bread & butter.)
I dunno, maybe a nice sweet bread, like a good challah, would go nicely with butter and cherries on top.
But not frostbitten cherries.
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I don't know if you saw the FAQ but it killed this build.
SLAs no longer count as casting spells for prerequisites, so you need arcane casting to enter arcane trickster.
Yeah, thanks for the heads up. Super frustrating, but I'm trying to figure out how to salvage it, because I've gotten SUPER excited for this character.
Losses: all Sneak Attack progression beyond 2d6, no possibility of ever getting sneak dice on a Storm of Vengeance :'(
Possible gains: better BAB, more slayer talents (including GTWF at 10), swift studied target at 9, frees up a magic trait to take Magical Lineage on Flame Blade, frees up choice of races (although tengu may still be the best option.)
Working on retooling the build currently. I might go human and take Elemental Spell early, so my Flame Blade can be Lightning Blade/Ice Blade/Acid Blade at the same spell level. Still trying to look through races and see if there are any interesting FCBs or anything that will add to the build.
edit: oh, bother... I did not realize I would have to take Elemental Spell multiple times to gain all the different energy types. I suppose having Lightning Blade/Shockbite would be helpful, though. Also looks like the only interesting FCB is gnome, but since Cha is a dump stat that may not be a great choice.
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Gnome is still a good choice for the build. Pyromaniac gives you +1 CL to any fire spell, and an extra produce flame per day. Alternately, Fell Magic gives you +1DC for necromancy spells, Chill touch for Energy Resistant foes and lets you dump CHA. The FCB can give you energy resistance if you want it.
Goblin with Fire Hand and Flame Heart? Fire Hand is Weapon Focus II and Flame Heart is as good as Pyromaniac.
Flame Heart sadly has a not-so-good prerequisite feat.
There's always the Grey Gardener PrC... but I don't see too much of a point for it. You don't get much more Sneak Attack and lose casting levels. And no Arcane Trickster capstone goodness.
First crack at a new build, this one is human. Next I'll try to put together a gnome. Italics are things that I'm unsure about.
Human Elementalist
traits: Magical Lineage (flame blade), Wayang Spellhunter (frostbite)
strength 8, dexterity 18, constitution 12, intelligence 12, wisdom 16, charisma 8
1: Weapon Finesse, Elemental Spell (electricity)
2:
3: Dervish Dance
4: Two-Weapon Fighting (Slayer Talent - Ranger Combat Style)
5: Elemental Spell (acid)
6: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (Slayer Talent - Ranger Combat Style)
7: Elemental Spell (cold)
8: Weapon Focus (melee touch) (Slayer Talent - Weapon Training)
9: Hammer the Gap
10: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (Slayer Talent - Ranger Combat Style)
11: Improved Critical (scimitar)
12: Knock-Out Blow (Advanced Slayer Talent)
Taking Elemental Spell so many times is probably not necessary, so I'm curious to know what other suggestions people would have for my feats at 5, 7, and 9.
As you no longer need 2 SA, you can go with a different domain or even a pet. This is assuming you no longer need the 2 SA.
Well, the original idea was really a thought experiment in how to land Sneak Attack reliably. Granted, it has evolved quite a bit, and now my concept is
"The Elementalist" but I would like to conserve whatever SA dice I can keep.
I am thinking about doing a pc that starts similar but stays druid. Perhaps a dip somewhere after level 4.
But I will not focus too much on the melee aspect but just use it to conserve spells. I'll build him mainly as a caster using the studied as DC increase for spells.
I am thinking about doing a pc that starts similar but stays druid. Perhaps a dip somewhere after level 4.
But I will not focus too much on the melee aspect but just use it to conserve spells. I'll build him mainly as a caster using the studied as DC increase for spells.
Honestly, this is probably THE BEST thing you can do with this archetype.
For domain, the Desert Domain has some pretty good blasting spells, but of course, Fire/Water also good Domains.
A riskier option is the Black Powder Inquisition... you give up several spells but you get two feats (Exotic Weapon Prof and Gunsmithing) and the ability to lock down a caster. Considering your Studied Target feature, this might be a great choice since you'll be focusing on one target for the whole fight.
You probably wonder what to do with your Slayer Talents... I recommend that you use them for ranged fighting. Combat Trick, Weapon Training, Ranger Combat Style, Evasion... those are the winners. Everything else is pretty meh. Perhaps Blood Reader.
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I'm not sure you're aware, but touch attacks with frostbite are standard actions, and therefore can't be combined with flame blade attacks.
Source?
You'd have to actually attack with unarmed strikes to get frostbite to damage (which would then turn off the gloves).
Even if the standard action touch attack is true, the gloves also make all weapon attacks corrosive, so if you used unarmed strikes, you would still get the acid.
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Hmm. all I have is a quote from James Jacobs back in 2009.
Fair enough about the second part; forgot about corrosive.
I'm not sure you're aware, but touch attacks with frostbite are standard actions, and therefore can't be combined with flame blade attacks. How are you TWF with flame blade and frostbite?
Pretty sure this is not true, because otherwise 50% of maguses out there are crying right now. But I'd definitely want to see if there is RAW that says that this isn't allowed.
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Hmm. all I have is a quote from James Jacobs back in 2009.
Fair enough about the second part; forgot about corrosive.
As much as I respect JJ as the lore master of Golarion, he is not a rules guy, and how he would run it is not an indication of what the rules are.
Even still, that post was on produce flame, which while it allows a touch attack, it's not a touch spell.
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I'm not sure you're aware, but touch attacks with frostbite are standard actions, and therefore can't be combined with flame blade attacks. How are you TWF with flame blade and frostbite?Pretty sure this is not true, because otherwise 50% of maguses out there are crying right now. But I'd definitely want to see if there is RAW that says that this isn't allowed.
I don't see what the magus class has to do with this ruling.
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Spellstrike specifically gets around this by allowing the magus to channel touch attacks into weapon attacks. The only issue that would come up is identical to this one, where they are trying to TWF with melee weapon + frostbite touch attacks without using Spell Combat (since the magus can't use Spell Combat to continue delivering frostbite attacks without recasting the spell).
To be honest, I wrote my first post without first spending the time to check the touch spell/attack and iterative attack sections in the CRB. I can't find anything that limits iterative attacks specifically to weapon attacks, so I'm sorry for my first post.
Wizard 5/Magambyan Arcanist 1/Rogue or Ninja or Vivisectionist 1/Snakebite Striker 1/Arcane Trickster X would be possible... but at that point we're talking about being level 6 before you ever see the Flame Blade come out, and level 10 by the time your Sneak Attack dice hit +3d6 and actually exceed those granted by the druid build. And your BAB at that point is absolute garbage, there is no ITWF/GTWF basically forever, and you have lost two caster levels.
Even if the druid build is limited to Sneak Attack +2d6, I think it's probably still the best option.