Summoning Question (Multiple Summons)

[Timrod]

I'm a relatively new PFS player, so forgive me if I say something that's blatantly incorrect.

My understanding of summons is this: as per the organized play rules, you are only allowed to have one combat animal (usually an animal companion, eidolon, mount, or familiar) and one summon active at a time.

I have a couple of questions about the legality and mechanics of multiple summons, some of which I've seen asked but were never really answered.

First: When you reach second-level spells (Summon Monster 2 or Summon Nature's Ally 2) you have the option of summoning either one creature from the level 2 list or 1d3 creatures of the same type from the level 1 list. Would taking the latter option be violating the "one summon" rule? I would imagine not, because feats like Superior Summoning and Balanced Summoning are listed as legal on the Additional Resources page.

Second: Does Superior Summoning apply if you take the 1d3 creatures option on Summon Monster 2 (or above), even if you do not manage to summon multiple creatures (roll a 1 on the d3), or does it only apply if you actually manage to summon multiple creatures?

Third: With Balanced Summoning and Superior Summoning active at the same time, how does that work mechanically? You summon two creatures of opposing alignments (one celestial and one fiendish) but which alignment would the third be?

[Jeff Merola]

There's no actual restriction on number of summons out at once, beyond please don't summon so many that you bog down the game.

[Scrapper]

I believe the single summons refers to a single summon spell being active, which as the spell states, can summon multiples of a lower level, and yes the feats do improve upon that, but it is still a single casting that is active.

[andreww]

Yep, the pets rule relates to things like mounts, animal companions or familiars. It does not apply to spell effects like summons or animated dead.

Having said that flooding the battlefield with dozens of creatures and then taking loads of table time to run then is generally bad form. If you are going to summon make sure to have stat cards prepared for them. If they are affected by your feats, such as Augment, then make sure the stat cards fully reflect them. If they have feats you want to use, like power attack, have combat stats which reflect them using that feat and not so you don't have to take time recalculating things mid turn.

I play a number of different characters who can summon but generally do so in online play where it is much easier to just create macro's and take their actions with the click of a button. I would be more reluctant in a face to face game and would probably limit myself to single critters personally.

Also make sure to bring mini's for your summons. The GM shouldn't have to supply them for you.

[Andreas Forster]

Yep, there's nothing that prevents you from summoning multiple creatures. Summoned creatures only stay for a number of rounds equal to your caster level (and require a full-round action to summon), so they don't create as much trouble as a permanent companion creature (which requires a free action to handle).

But in most cases, you don't really have to cast more than one summon spell per encounter. Most times, the creatures you summon with the first spell plus the party's barbarians and/or fighters finish off the opponents faster than you can finish your second summon spell.

[Game Master]

There's no rule about summoning tons of things. You just can't have more than one permanent combat companion.

I've been at dozens of tables where a wizard or summoner has about twelve Lantern Archons summoned at once.

[GM Lamplighter]

I never see anyone use full-round summons - it's always summoners or occultists who can do it as a standard. But I agree - a well-prepared summoner is fine with multiple creatures, as long as you're not crowding out other players (due to time taken) or other characters (who probably also want to fight the less-than-6 enemies, too).

[ohako]

honestly, why not just pass them around, you know, tell your summons this

'try to help out that guy on his turn'.

and then just have the other party members control some summons

share the fun, yeah?

[Undone]

GM Lamplighter wrote:

I never see anyone use full-round summons - it's always summoners or occultists who can do it as a standard. But I agree - a well-prepared summoner is fine with multiple creatures, as long as you're not crowding out other players (due to time taken) or other characters (who probably also want to fight the less-than-6 enemies, too).

My druid full rounds because he's 100% core except superior summons. (and ant haul because it was funny to drag a ton creature back to town) I disliked the shaman archetypes so I chose to go straight druid and still summon during encounters I think will be hard. That said the reason this works is because if the fight will be easy/medium I can let people shine then follow up and finish it OR I can Pounce-claw-claw-bite-rake-rake-haste bite and just kill it. Summoning as a full round guarantees 2 round fights unless the party is amazing (Since most 3 or 4 man groups will struggle to put encounters down in round 1) which I found makes GM's hate you less.

Quote:

honestly, why not just pass them around, you know, tell your summons this

Tried this once. Never again. I've got the stats for every monster I would summon memorized and written down with PA/Augment/exct written in. It's more time consuming to let someone else run them.

[Curaigh]

Undone wrote:

Quote:

honestly, why not just pass them around, you know, tell your summons this

Tried this once. Never again. I've got the stats for every monster I would summon memorized and written down with PA/Augment/exct written in. It's more time consuming to let someone else run them.

I have done this, but when I ask someone to run a critter, I give them a card with the critter's attacks bonus, AC, HP, and duration in rounds. I made each card a different color that happens to also match the minis. I have these cards in a sleeve protector that lets it double as a dry erase board: I don't have to have a different card for each critter, just 1d4+1 different cards (& minis).

Timrod wrote:

Second: Does Superior Summoning apply if you take the 1d3 creatures option on Summon Monster 2 (or above), even if you do not manage to summon multiple creatures (roll a 1 on the d3), or does it only apply if you actually manage to summon multiple creatures?

Third: With Balanced Summoning and Superior Summoning active at the same time, how does that work mechanically? You summon two creatures of opposing alignments (one celestial and one fiendish) but which alignment would the third be?

I have seen question 2 interpreted both ways. Ask your GM if 1d3 is greater than 1. Personally, the choice to summon 1d3 critters is made when the spell is cast, not when it completes. Or wait for that feat until you get 1d4+1 critters. (If their is a FAQ saying otherwise I have missed it. )

I do not recognize the Balanced Summoning feat and it is not on the PRD. It might not even be PFS legal making the question moot (for PFS). If it is on the Additional Resources Page* as legal, point me to it and I will try & answer the question.

EDIT: *I just realized as a new player you may not be familiar with the additional resources page. If an item is not Core, it must be listed here as playable and you need to bring a copy of the source with you.

[DesolateHarmony]

Cuaigh wrote:

I do not recognize the Balanced Summoning feat and it is not on the PRD. It might not even be PFS legal making the question moot (for PFS). If it is on the Additional Resources Page* as legal, point me to it and I will try & answer the question.

Balanced Summoning is an Arcane Discovery from Champions of Balance, on page 20, which, from Additional Materials is legal for play.

Archives of Nethys wrote:

PFS Legal Balanced Summoning (Champions of Balance pg. 20 (Amazon)): You maintain balance by calling on opposing forces when summoning. Whenever you cast a summon monster spell, you can summon two creatures from a single list 1 or more levels lower than the level of the spell. The two creatures must have alignments that are opposite along at least one axis (chaotic and lawful or evil and good). For example, if you cast summon monster III, you could summon a celestial wolf and a fiendish hyena from the 2nd-level list.

[Curaigh]

Ahhh... Thank you Desolate Harmony. :) I was looking at feats.

From what you have provided, I see it specifically calls out 'two creatures.' Not 1d3, or 1d4+1, but two. Also this calls out a single list, and the spell itself says 'creature type.' This isn't specifically covered in Superior Summoning, but specific replaces general this feat should default to the 'one or more creatures of the same type' from the spell (which balance doesn't do). The balance does activate the 'whenever' part of Superior Summoning, so I see where the confusion comes from.*

IMHO The caster will have to choose between the balanced summoning discovery and Superior Summoning feat when casting. You are either summoning two creatures or two + one.

I am interested to see other's interpretation of this.

*:

This is a fine example as to why I argue there are too many options in PFS, the system cannae predict what future options will confuse/complicate/break every existing option. Actually my argument isn't to limit the options available to players that is a good thing, but rather to limit the options available to any one character. But that is not this thread nor ever likely to happen. Especially with the core only campaign that partially addresses this. :)