|
So I've read the re-skinning FAQ but I'm a little unsure what it meant about re-skinning items.
I have a character that claims to be royalty (though is unable to prove it). I want to take the Flagbearer feat for this character but I don't like the flavor of a royal-type character holding his own banner. It doesn't fit.
Am I allowed to change it from a flag to, say, a scepter or something, maintaining all of the mechanical requirements of the feat (held in one hand, disarmable, not functional as a weapon, etc)? Also, I actually have both the Herald and Porter vanities, can one of them "hold" the flag for me outside of the battlefield while I hold said scepter which functions as the flag in all ways except aesthetics?
|
That sounds like a mechanical benefit you're trying to gain there. Reskinning is simply for appearances. A reskin isn't allowed if the mechanics of the game are changed, which is what would happen if 'flag' got changed to 'mace'.
Your character needs to hold the flag.
Why not attach it to a long-spear or a lance? That'd be fine.
|
I wouldn't allow it to duplicate a flag for a wide variety of reasons.
Just one example being that nobody in your PFS party is going to care at all that some guy who claims to be a noble is holding a random scepter.
As long as you hold your clan, house, or party’s flag, members of that allegiance within 30 feet who can see the flag...
|
|
I wouldn't allow it to duplicate a flag for a wide variety of reasons.
Just one example being that nobody in your PFS party is going to care at all that some guy who claims to be a noble is holding a random scepter.
As long as you hold your clan, house, or party’s flag, members of that allegiance within 30 feet who can see the flag...
Regardless of the item being held how does that part of the feat change? Why would they care if I'm holding my families royal flag anymore than a scepter?
Ultimately it's each player's choice whether they want to care or not, if they don't care they don;t have to gain the benefits. If they care then they reap the benefits. I'm a summoner so ultimately it's not for them anyway, it's for my summoned creatures.|
|
Eghhhhn. Technically, a scepter is a mace, unless it's a poorly made art object. I get that you wouldn't use it as a weapon but if a GM asked what you had in your hands and you said 'bomb in one hand, scepter in the other' I'd assume your PC was armed and combat could play differently.
Also, who gets inspired by a lowborn commoner holding aloft an art object? I think you're pushing the intentions of the reskin rules here and as a GM I'd redirect you to follow your feat as written.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Your allies will receive no benefit unless they are a member of your royal family as well. So you might as well be holding up a dead skunk.
Any time I've ever seen anyone use this feat in PFS they slap the glyph of the open road on their flag and buff their whole party.
|
|
Your allies will receive no benefit unless they are a member of your royal family as well. So you might as well be holding up a dead skunk.
Any time I've ever seen anyone use this feat in PFS they slap the glyph of the open road on their flag and buff their whole party.
I'm ok with that. It's for my summoned creatures, not the rest of the party anyway. If they choose to show allegience to me and gain the benefits of the flag I'm ok with that too.
|
|
You may have misread that, or sorry if I miscommunicated, I'm not looking for a mechanical benefit of any sort. I'm holding an item that functions in every way as the flag in question, just happens to look like a scepter.You can't reskin that way. The banner has to be a big humoungus flaggy thingy. Reskinning is very restricted in Pathfinder, more on the order of having a thrush familiar and calling it a robin instead level of skinning.
Well...in truth the feat never actually states how big that flag need to be. It could be the size of a pixie stick (or a scepter for that matter) for all that feat cares.
Another mechanical side-step: Your porter doesn't have Charisma 15.
Remember Kestler, I'm the one holding the "Flag" (scepter) and granting its benefits to everyone. The Porter was brought up as a potential way to explain the requirement of an actual flag somewhere, even though I'M the one holding the mechanical "flag"(scepter) and therefore I'M the one who needs the Cha 15.
|
A player may not re-skin items to be something for which there are no specific rules, and any item a character uses for which there are no stats is considered an improvised weapon
The FAQ seems pretty clear here... a scepter is not a flag...
You are however free to call/name the flag you bear a "Scepter". Everyone else would just see a flag.
|
|
Yeesh, some really hardass people here. Glad I don't play with some of you, I kinda feel bad for your players lol.
Anyway, the VO's I play with have just OK'd this combo for use during any games they oversee, including the nonmechanical re-skin and granting the bonuses to my summoned creatures.
I like my VO's they are a cool group of guys who know we are all there to have fun :)
|
|
Yeesh, some really hardass people here. Glad I don't play with some of you....
The feeling's mutual. The campaign management has made it's feeling clear about reskinning. And most of us believe in following management's rules, 1. for consistency and 2. because they make sense.
Reskinning something into something totally different not only breaks rules but versimilitude as well, something I kind of value rather highly.
Oh it wasn't the re-skinning part I was referring to there. That is quite clearly against the rules as has been cleared up with this thread and no GM can be blamed for following them especially in PFS.
I was actually referring to the people that commented on not even allowing the flag to effect the summoners own summons.|
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It all depends what's on the flag.
If it's the symbol of the open road it will affect Pathfinders
If it's the Taldan flag it will affect Taldons.
If it's the Holy Symbol of Asmodeus it probably will affect summoned devils.
It it's the flag of your house it will affect anyone who has sworn fealty to you, so unless your summons spend a round to swear fealty I wouldn't grant the bonus.
Saying some people are really hardass and that you feel bad for their players is kinda insulting. You are the one that's bending/breaking the rules!
|
|
It all depends what's on the flag.
If it's the symbol of the open road it will affect Pathfinders
If it's the Taldan flag it will affect Taldons.
If it's the Holy Symbol of Asmodeus it probably will affect summoned devils.
It it's the flag of your house it will affect anyone who has sworn fealty to you, so unless your summons spend a round to swear fealty I wouldn't grant the bonus.Saying some people are really hardass and that you feel bad for their players is kinda insulting. You are the one that's bending/breaking the rules!
That's true. Apologizes if I insulted anyone (had a rough morning, though that's no excuse). Even if I don't necessarily agree with it I still appreciate all of you guys' input! Have fun PFS'ing!
|
|
Aside from POSSIBLY the Eidolon, it wouldn't make sense for it to do so. Either because they're beyond this world's concerns, i.e. Lantern Archon, or Bebilith, or because they don't have the brains to be inspired by it... i.e. Tyrannosaurs Rex.
That's true too. I hadn't looked at it that way. I had always looked at it as the Summons were manifested by the Summoner and obey his commands perfectly (assuming they understand him), and to me that sounded a lot like showing allegiance to me. And regardless of how dumb an animal is, as long as it has an intelligence score it can still benefit from morale bonuses. I could see it going either way really.
|
|
They don't actually. Unless they have a common language, the summons just attack the nearest enemy. (And celestial/infernal animals no longer speak those planar languages any more.)That's true too. I hadn't looked at it that way. I had always looked at it as the Summons were manifested by the Summoner and obey his commands perfectly (assuming they understand him), and to me that sounded a lot like showing allegiance to me. And regardless of how dumb an animal is, as long as it has an intelligence score it can still benefit from morale bonuses. I could see it going either way really.
Aside from POSSIBLY the Eidolon, it wouldn't make sense for it to do so. Either because they're beyond this world's concerns, i.e. Lantern Archon, or Bebilith, or because they don't have the brains to be inspired by it... i.e. Tyrannosaurs Rex.
Aye, that's why I don't use the animals in Pathfinder anymore. I've always been more of an Elemental kinda guy myself anyway. Took all four elemental languages.
|
Back to the OP question, you could use a hat or coat as a banner with the Spellscar Drifter Cavalier. This is a fifth level class ability, so I would not allow a reskin without it.
Worn Banner (Ex): At 5th level, a Spellscar drifter can choose to use his hat as his banner. If the drifter does not wear a hat, another iconic accessory—such as an eyemask, bandana, or distinguishing coat—can instead serve as his banner. In all other ways, this ability functions as and replaces the banner cavalier ability.
That's true. Apologizes if I insulted anyone (had a rough morning, though that's no excuse). Even if I don't necessarily agree with it I still appreciate all of you guys' input! Have fun PFS'ing!It all depends what's on the flag.
If it's the symbol of the open road it will affect Pathfinders
If it's the Taldan flag it will affect Taldons.
If it's the Holy Symbol of Asmodeus it probably will affect summoned devils.
It it's the flag of your house it will affect anyone who has sworn fealty to you, so unless your summons spend a round to swear fealty I wouldn't grant the bonus.Saying some people are really hardass and that you feel bad for their players is kinda insulting. You are the one that's bending/breaking the rules!
The classic non-apology apology.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
The other issue is that you can't buy a sceptre in PFS because it's not on any equipment list that I'm aware of. Flags are defined in Ultimate Equipment and are given a weight (which can imply size, perhaps?)
Hang on a moment, Scott. If the scepter were defined and given a distinct entry in UE, that's when the "no re-skinning" rule would take effect, because the character would be claiming that one game-defined thing were another game-defined thing. Scepters aren't defined, so claiming that a flag is a "scepter" should be all right.
To the OP: if you sat at my table, I'd make sure that everybody around, allies and opponents both, understood that the "scepter" was giving you extraordinary benefits, just like a normal banner, but otherwise I wouldn't have a problem with it.
|
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
|
Well, a Flag with the Symbol of the open road has some in-game effects, so will have any flag with a certain allegiance. Unless you make up a party name and a party flag and swear allegiance at the start of the session, NPCs will probably have a certain reaction.
|
Aye, that's why I don't use the animals in Pathfinder anymore. I've always been more of an Elemental kinda guy myself anyway. Took all four elemental languages.They don't actually. Unless they have a common language, the summons just attack the nearest enemy. (And celestial/infernal animals no longer speak those planar languages any more.)That's true too. I hadn't looked at it that way. I had always looked at it as the Summons were manifested by the Summoner and obey his commands perfectly (assuming they understand him), and to me that sounded a lot like showing allegiance to me. And regardless of how dumb an animal is, as long as it has an intelligence score it can still benefit from morale bonuses. I could see it going either way really.
Aside from POSSIBLY the Eidolon, it wouldn't make sense for it to do so. Either because they're beyond this world's concerns, i.e. Lantern Archon, or Bebilith, or because they don't have the brains to be inspired by it... i.e. Tyrannosaurs Rex.
Would you consider someone who is dominated by magic to do your bidding actually swearing fealty? Or do you think perhaps they might be swearing at you under their breath while doing your bidding?
Swearing fealty to you isn't just doing what you say. Its lumping their lot in with yours.
Summoned creatures are magically forced to either attack your enemies or do your bidding if you can communicate. If you can communicate, and you want to spend a round commanding them to swear fealty to you, they will do so, in word only. If you want to spend a minute using diplomacy to convince them to swear fealty to you, then I'd allow it. But in most cases, you wouldn't really get to use them in combat.
|
|
Would you consider someone who is dominated by magic to do your bidding actually swearing fealty? Or do you think perhaps they might be swearing at you under their breath while doing your bidding?
Swearing fealty to you isn't just doing what you say. Its lumping their lot in with yours.
Summoned creatures are magically forced to either attack your enemies or do your bidding if you can communicate. If you can communicate, and you want to spend a round commanding them to swear fealty to you, they will do so, in word only. If you want to spend a minute using diplomacy to convince them to swear fealty to you, then I'd allow it. But in most cases, you wouldn't really get to use them in combat.
According to the book, summoned creatures are merely manifestations of a creature. This is largely up to table variation, sure, I personally interpret it to mean they are essentially projections of a real creature, not the actual creature itself. And that the creature is neither dominated nor have any semblance of free will. This is why the summoned monster is intrinsically imparted with the knowledge of who it's allies are and who are enemies without needing to communicate this info, anymore than you would need to communicate that to a Magic Missile. Even a mindless centipede, normally incapable of the concept of ally and enemy is conjured into being, knowing this, because the creature is not a creature at all, it is a spell effect.
Seeing as how it is up to table variation though, and you interpret it to be an actual creature summoned from its home in the middle of dinner (how is that not a evil act?) I could see how you would not allow the Flagbearer to effect them. I'd be pissed off at the summoner too lol.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I remember a conversation I had discussing what summoned animals do between summons. Imagine the conversations they have, if capable of doing so, about their various summoners. Like employees kvetching among themselves about their horrible bosses. Then one gets that familiar tingling sensation and fades away screaming "NO NO NO NOT AGAIN" while their fellows shake their heads in sympathy.
-j
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
I admit to being a little quirky. At my table, a summoned animal comes from one of the outer planes, a spirit knitted in material flesh for a short while. When it dies, or when the summoning spell ends, the creature unravels back to nothingness. (So, no, you can't eat your summoned creature.) The question of what the summoned creature says or does or knows, after it's been summoned, is non-sensical, because it's not a creature, as such, but rather a manifestation.
In computer terms, it's an instance of a class. It's deleted when the spell ends, so you never summon "the same celestial beetle" or "the same earth elemental" from one casting to another.