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Anzer, how does wizard deal with undetectable and what is you "kill" shot?
Tactics matter always. A first level commoner can beat a wizard if wizard removes all spells and goes to sleep inside a AMZ. A wizard does not need to rely on the fighter's mistakes to win but undetectable means he is hard to deal with if he will not engage the wizard.
Depends. Here was some of my Commune Questions (from 1 week prep):
Is my opponent in 1 week immune to Mind-affecting powers?
Is my opponent in 1 week immune to Strength Damage?
Is my opponent in 1 week immune to Constitution Damage?
Is my opponent in 1 week immune to Force Damage?
Is my opponent in 1 week blind?
Is my opponent in 1 week deaf?
Is my opponent in 1 week capable of receiving Aroden's Spellbane?
Is one of my oppoonent's Spellbane spells in one week Wish?
Is one of my oppoonent's Spellbane spells in one week Limited Wish?
Is one of my oppoonent's Spellbane spells in one week Mage's Disjunction?
Is one of my oppoonent's Spellbane spells in one week Greater Dispel Magic?
Is one of my oppoonent's Spellbane spells in one week Aroden's Spellbane?
Is one of my oppoonent's Spellbane spells in one week Antimagic Field?
Is one of my oppoonent's Spellbane spells in one week Invisibility Purge?
Is one of my oppoonent's Spellbane spells in one week Explosive Runes?
Is my opponent in 1 week capable of receiving Mythic Globe of Invulernability?
Is my opponent in 1 week capable of receiving Globe of Invulernability?
Which direction will my opponent in 1 week move in their first 6 seconds?
Which direction will my opponent in 1 week move in their second 6 seconds?
My primary tactic with dealing with undetectable was to just plain not make it matter. With Battlemind Link (cool spell), both Arkalion and one of his Tzitzimitl will both have a 78 Initiative. With a Caster Level of 26, he can bring 8 medium creatures with him using Quickened Greater Teleport, so he will bring one Gargantuan creature (the Tzitzimitl) and one Norn directly to the spot where the enemy starts. Then I attempt to remove any Globe of Invulnerability, mythic or otherwise, using a spell based on what any potential spellbane the opponent has up. Once the defenses are down, the Tzitzimitl can use it's Deeper Darkness + Eclipse ability to deal guaranteed damage + stagger in a wide area. Once their initiative hits, the other Tzitzimitl will use Greater Teleport to cross to the location and spam Deeper Darkness until the opponent is dead. I'm confident that between all my defenses I can survive one round if the Fighter decides to just target my Harbinger Daemon body. Even if my body is successfully killed my soul will just return to the Spirit Jar carried on either the Norn or Tzitzimitl (another Tzitzimitl has the last spirit jar). At which point I'll possess the Norn and the Tzitzimitl's will focus fire that area.
Though I also had several "Totems" with permanent symbols that I could deploy across the arena. From my prep sheet:
Craft a new Totem:
Add:
1 Symbol of Vulnerability
7 Persistent Symbol of Weakness
2 Persistent Symbol of Pain
3 Persistent symol of Slowing.
Cast Shrink Item. Solars make above all permanent.
Assuming my opponent isn't immune to ability damage, one of the activating in range will either incapacitate or at the very least heavily weaken the Fighter.
Once the Fighter is dead, I planned to remove all their magic items and dispel any lingering buffs before hitting him with Soul Bind. Without buffs, it should be impossible to succeed against, particularly with the Norn around to force a reroll.
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Tactics matter always. A first level commoner can beat a wizard if wizard removes all spells and goes to sleep inside a AMZ. A wizard does not need to rely on the fighter's mistakes to win but undetectable means he is hard to deal with if he will not engage the wizard.
That's where you're making your biggest mistake.
A high level wizard is not powerful because she has powerful spells, but because she knows everything.
A high level wizard knows her enemies, including strengths and weaknesses.
A high level wizard knows the future.
There are absolutly no possibility that a high level wizard die by the hand of a first level commoner, except by accepting it volontarily. And I mean 0% chance, not a really reaaaaaaally low chance.
Well, I figured this would go the wizard's way. Not for this particular reason of course, but still. Very cool build, Anzyr, I'm taking notes for future use.
Just a couple of minor issues with what you've got up. First off, it would require a VERY lenient GM to allow you to know via Commune what your opponent, whoever the other character is playing, is going to decide to do. I was under the impression we weren't relying on that degree of GM fiat, but I could have been mistaken. Also, the last two questions are not 'yes/no', which is how Commune works.
Furthermore, there is good in-universe reason that such a method of telling the future simply wouldn't be possible. I think it was James Jacobs who stated that there are no active greater deities in the Pathfinder universe. This is very relevant for Contact Other Plane, but also for Commune. See, Pathfinder being meant to be as compatible as possible with 3.X, that means the divine ranks rules are relevant here. It takes a divine rank of 16+ (greater deities and stronger) to be able to see the future. Now, if we were going by core rules in a setting-neutral environment, I wouldn't bring this up. However, you seem inclined to include setting-specific spells, such as Aroden's Spellbane and Blood Money in your setup. Ergo, the fact that this is taking place in the same universe as that of RotRL means that the future should be impossible to reliably tell. If you need MORE proof of that, consider how prophecy got broken after Aroden died.
I'm legitimately glad a wizard build was posted, though I'm still not sure that builds go very far at all in resolving this question.
That said, I'm not sure how Anzyr's posted build addresses the issue of a mind-blanked, flying, undetectable fighter.
The suggested tactics are predicated on Commune and/or having a foreknowledge of the fighters starting location, and beating the fighter to the punch on getting out of the meta-known location.
Granted, its a separate question entirely whether the fighter can actually manage a kill/defeat if he can get the drop on the wizard... I just would like to know what I'm missing, because its apparent that Ive missed quite a lot recently
Right now, Im only dealing with the question of 'is there a way for the fighter to be found?'
That legitimately makes a difference, tactically, for the fighter.
I'm legitimately glad a wizard build was posted, though I'm still not sure that builds go very far at all in resolving this question.
That said, I'm not sure how Anzyr's posted build addresses the issue of a mind-blanked, flying, undetectable fighter.
The suggested tactics are predicated on Commune and/or having a foreknowledge of the fighters starting location, and beating the fighter to the punch on getting out of the meta-known location.
Granted, its a separate question entirely whether the fighter can actually manage a kill/defeat if he can get the drop on the wizard... I just would like to know what I'm missing, because its apparent that Ive missed quite a lot recently
Right now, Im only dealing with the question of 'is there a way for the fighter to be found?'
That legitimately makes a difference, tactically, for the fighter.
You do realize the Fighter is only undetectable while he is invisible right? Hence the 20 CL Invisibility Purge, that's a 100 ft. Radius invisibility shutdown. The Lantern is there purely to reveal a target that has immunity to the spell version through some method (like Globe of Invulnerability or Aroden's Spellbane). So finding the Fighter has already been covered.
I also fail to see anything wrong with predicating my tactics on the assumption my opponent has been summoned similar to me, especially since I have divinations to back it up.
Edit @ Cerberus Seven: Divine ranks are irrelevant here as we are not using that content. The fact is that commune will provide a yes/no answer to the question. The last two questions are shorthand for "Will my opponent in 1 week move East in their first 6 seconds?" "Will my opponent in 1 week move West in their first 6 seconds?" Etc. Also, the future can be reliably told in Golarion because spells like Augury function based on it. And it doesn't require a lenient DM. That's what the spell does.
Augury can see 30 minutes into the future at maximum with a less than absolute degree of reliability. Commune is not a guaranteed 'yes/no', it can also be 'unclear'. And getting their location based on initial direction from three questions based on axes may not be that precise if they were to go off in, say, a NNW direction with a mere 15 degree incline at 180 ft per round, for example. There's also the possibility that they may double back and make your spell's readings all wonky by providing a 'yes' answer to both directions simultaneously. Again, this is all assuming the deity you ask can see this information in the future anyways. If your tactics don't care about that and can cover the area reliably anyways, then okay and nevermind. These spells are designed to provide assistance in choosing a best course of action or discern useful information with a moderate to high, but not absolute, degree of certainty, based on the limitations of the spell. Knowing their limitations and caveats is a good idea, especially for a divination focused caster.
Augury can see 30 minutes into the future at maximum with a less than absolute degree of reliability. Commune is not a guaranteed 'yes/no', it can also be 'unclear'. And getting their location based on initial direction from three questions based on axes may not be that precise if they were to go off in, say, a NNW direction with a mere 15 degree incline at 180 ft per round, for example. There's also the possibility that they may double back and make your spell's readings all wonky by providing a 'yes' answer to both directions simultaneously. Again, this is all assuming the deity you ask can see this information in the future anyways. If your tactics don't care about that and can cover the area reliably anyways, then okay and nevermind. These spells are designed to provide assistance in choosing a best course of action or discern useful information with a moderate to high, but not absolute, degree of certainty, based on the limitations of the spell. Knowing their limitations and caveats is a good idea, especially for a divination focused caster.
I'm aware of those limitations, however you are implying that Golarion Gods have less ability to see into the future then a 2nd level spell that they can grant to their clerics. And certainly the Fighter could double back and all that, but we'll never know if they will or not since one never showed up to be questioned. Furthermore I have number of Tzitzimitl each of which can cover a large area with deeper darkness to deal damage + stagger. And the ability to lockdown a 60 ft. Radius per Totem. Best of all Symbol of Vulnerability is no save/take penalties.
I'm aware of those limitations, however you are implying that Golarion Gods have less ability to see into the future then a 2nd level spell that they can grant to their clerics.
Not quite as such, but their foresight IS limited, at least for the reasons spelled out above if not moreso. So far, no one's bothered to point out any flaws in said logic. Plus, you should keep in mind, the gods have done some fairly stupid things in the past. Sarenrae, for example, once slashed a ginormous, fiery hole in the earth in SE Avistan (for reasons I'm forgetting), the result of which was the release of the Spawns of Rovagug into Golarion. You'd figure a god who could clearly see the future, especially one as integral to sealing the Rough Beast as her, would've seen that coming, no? There's also Desna, who nearly triggered an immense war between a united demonkind and the rest of the multiverse by charging headlong into the Abyss on a rescue mission for a single follower. The entire council of Empyreal Lords got together to deliver a message of, "Do NOT do that again" to her afterwards. Speaking of Desna, her mentor god, whose name I cannot recall, was slain by Lamashtu as part of a trap when the Mother of Monsters was still just an upstart demon lord. If a deity should have adequate foresight of ANYTHING, I'd imagine the conditions of their own mortality and how to avoid it would be high on the list. Here's another one in that vein: Ihys. How did he not know his brother Asmodeus intended to off him like that? So yes, my reasoning based on actual Golarion-verse lore is that the gods are far from omniscient, especially where the future is concerned.
Speaking of limitations concerning knowledge and gods, haven't you argued in the past that real-world mythological gods, such as the Greek pantheon and their occasionally titanic feats, were chumps and that wizards were clearly FAR more powerful than them? I believe likening Zeus to a 12th level druid happened in one such instance. Why the sudden increase in their perceived power-level to where they can see the future with near perfect clarity days in advance and impart that insight to their followers? What changed your mind?
The ability to grant a spell doesn't impart particular abilities. Take for example mythic creatures granting spells. That doesn't mean those creatures are paragons of foreknowledge. Sure, you can say 'but gods...'. However, the example we have is what we go on. Nothing guarantees or even hints that gods are anywhere near omniscient. In fact, most of Golarion lore requires they not be. So, if mythic is a ground floor representation of what just beginning to grant spells is like, then it's a total crapshoot.
I'm aware of those limitations, however you are implying that Golarion Gods have less ability to see into the future then a 2nd level spell that they can grant to their clerics.Not quite as such, but their foresight IS limited, at least for the reasons spelled out above if not moreso. So far, no one's bothered to point out any flaws in said logic. Plus, you should keep in mind, the gods have done some fairly stupid things in the past. Sarenrae, for example, once slashed a ginormous, fiery hole in the earth in SE Avistan (for reasons I'm forgetting), the result of which was the release of the Spawns of Rovagug into Golarion. You'd figure a god who could clearly see the future, especially one as integral to sealing the Rough Beast as her, would've seen that coming, no? There's also Desna, who nearly triggered an immense war between a united demonkind and the rest of the multiverse by charging headlong into the Abyss on a rescue mission for a single follower. The entire council of Empyreal Lords got together to deliver a message of, "Do NOT do that again" to her afterwards. Speaking of Desna, her mentor god, whose name I cannot recall, was slain by Lamashtu as part of a trap when the Mother of Monsters was still just an upstart demon lord. If a deity should have adequate foresight of ANYTHING, I'd imagine the conditions of their own mortality and how to avoid it would be high on the list. Here's another one in that vein: Ihys. How did he not know his brother Asmodeus intended to off him like that? So yes, my reasoning based on actual Golarion-verse lore is that the gods are far from omniscient, especially where the future is concerned.
Speaking of limitations concerning knowledge and gods, haven't you argued in the past that real-world mythological gods, such as the Greek pantheon and their occasionally titanic feats, were chumps and that wizards were clearly FAR more powerful than them? I believe likening Zeus to a 12th level druid happened in one such instance. Why...
Those gods simply weren't asking the right questions then. Remember you have to actually use the power to benefit from it. The more accurate answer is because "Paizo though that would make the story interesting." Who knows, maybe Lamashtu used something on her non-existent stat sheet to counter the future seeing ability of the Mentor gods similarly non-existent character sheet. So basically Pathfiinder are narrative deities as capable or not capable as the plot demands.
Golarion gods are way stronger then Greek gods. That's just how impressive 3.5 (and by extension Pathfinder) magic is. Zeus has got nothing on a 9th level caster. Zeus didn't create the Earth out of thing air after all. Ok, I guess Golarion gods could be weaker then Greek gods (if the plot demands it, see above), but it makes zero sense for say Nethys to not be at the very *least* stronger then a single 20th level caster. Which would make him stronger then all the Greek gods by default. The basic assumption is that the Golarion gods are all stronger then a comparative level 20 character, and that level 20 Pathfinder characters are way stronger then Greek Gods. The second premise is defiantly true, the first while required for a consistent Golarion narrative, need not be a I suppose. If the first part is not true and the Golarion gods are weaker then 20th level characters, my assessment of the Greek gods levels is unchanged though. Keep in mind even the Greek gods had ways of divining the future.
I concur that an Undetectable fighter would be immune to any form of foresight regarding him. Likewise anyone with Mind Blank up.
Communing and expecting the answers you want is not a viable tactic for this fight. Commune is a 5th level spell and should be restricted to the power of it. Anything regarding the future should return something like 'always moving is the future. Hard to see.'
What you are effectively attempting to do is 'lock in' the future by using Commune to make any other course of action impossible, 'because I'd know.' That is clearly beyond the power of any 5th level spell.
==Aelryinth
I concur that an Undetectable fighter would be immune to any form of foresight regarding him. Likewise anyone with Mind Blank up.
Communing and expecting the answers you want is not a viable tactic for this fight. Commune is a 5th level spell and should be restricted to the power of it. Anything regarding the future should return something like 'always moving is the future. Hard to see.'
What you are effectively attempting to do is 'lock in' the future by using Commune to make any other course of action impossible, 'because I'd know.' That is clearly beyond the power of any 5th level spell.
==Aelryinth
Is it? Because the way it's written suggests otherwise. It can answer yes/no questions about the future because knowing about the future is LITERALLY what divinations are for. You don't think people cut open animals to determine the present do you?
Webster time:
Divination:
1 : the art or practice that seeks to foresee or foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge usually by the interpretation of omens or by the aid of supernatural powers
2: unusual insight : intuitive perception
My NPC casts Commune, asks where the PC's are going in one week. The god says "Absalom."
He's communed, he's divined the future. Regardless of what the PC's want to do, they're going to go to Absalom and be there in one week.
THAT'S what you are arguing the spell will do. And I'm arguing that no, that's not the case.
There's also the fact that the spell could be wrong...and anytime you're dealing with prophecy, which is basically what you are here, that should be the big factor.
Your example conveniently leaves out the fact that knowledge of the future always comes through so murky and convoluted that it could be interpreted any number of ways. Divinations were always about interpreting things correctly, and frequently they were flat out wrong in hindsight.
So, no, locking in the future is not going to be something that a 5th level spell can do.
And let's not ignore the fact that Undetectable and Mind Blank mean that Commune can't grant any knowledge related to the one protected by those effects. You'd ask the question and simply get silence.
==Aelryinth
Any divinations to gather information on a mind blanked opponent fail.
You have knowledge of the Arena size(1000 x1000 x inf?), and that you may choose at random in a hundred by hundred ft space on opposite sides (where on the side?) to be your starting location.
If you know precisely where the opponent starts (to within a degree that renders undetectability moot, anyway), then the contest actually favors the wizard in this regard.
Invisibility purge/lantern pretty much guarantees your wizard is visible (does it?), so the fighter has pretty ample opportunity to evade the radius of the purge, provided the wizard doesn't luckily choose the optimal spot to greater teleport to.
The fighter also doesn't necessarily need to enter the range of the purge to execute the killing/defeat move either, so having a 25-100 ft buffer does not necessarily shut down the tactic (though it limits available options)
My focus might seem incredibly narrow right now: this is because I am trying to shore up any potential weakness in the fundamental basis of the tactic. Defeating the opponent is contingent on just surviving long enough to do it.
My NPC casts Commune, asks where the PC's are going in one week. The god says "Absalom."
He's communed, he's divined the future. Regardless of what the PC's want to do, they're going to go to Absalom and be there in one week.
THAT'S what you are arguing the spell will do. And I'm arguing that no, that's not the case.
There's also the fact that the spell could be wrong...and anytime you're dealing with prophecy, which is basically what you are here, that should be the big factor.
==Aelryinth
That's not what the spell does though. It answers Yes/No questions, so saying "Absalom" would not be a correct a use of the spell. That's RAW. The deity contacted can give more information only if it would make it clearer. Thus "East, then South" would be acceptable, if the target was moving Southeast. Again that's RAW. And you don't want to know how many uses of Commune I have to correct for any erroneous messages. It's a lot to say the least. So even if get it wrong once in a while that's irrelevant. This sounds an awful lot like you don't like how powerful Contact Other Plane/Commune are Aelryinth and are trying to invent rules to make them not as strong.
Any divinations to gather information on a mind blanked opponent fail.
You are assuming he has Mind Blank. Schrodinger's Fighter strikes again!
Alternate post:
As you can clearly see from the Fighter's sheet, there is no Mind Blank recorded on it.
Is it? Because the way it's written suggests otherwise. It can answer yes/no questions about the future because knowing about the future is LITERALLY what divinations are for. You don't think people cut open animals to determine the present do you?
The answers given are correct within the limits of the entity's knowledge. "Unclear" is a legitimate answer, because powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient. In cases where a one-word answer would be misleading or contrary to the deity's interests, a short phrase (five words or less) may be given as an answer instead.
The spell, at best, provides information to aid character decisions. The entities contacted structure their answers to further their own purposes.
"With the limits of their knowledge". "'Unclear' is a legitimate answer". May provide more information. "At best". Can be used to further entity's own purposes.
You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about what the god or entity in question would want you to know from a spell with this much uncertainty worded into it. Yes, you have a lot of uses of Commune. What you don't get to decide is what the GM decides they actually tell you.
Is it? Because the way it's written suggests otherwise. It can answer yes/no questions about the future because knowing about the future is LITERALLY what divinations are for. You don't think people cut open animals to determine the present do you?The answers given are correct within the limits of the entity's knowledge. "Unclear" is a legitimate answer, because powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient. In cases where a one-word answer would be misleading or contrary to the deity's interests, a short phrase (five words or less) may be given as an answer instead.
The spell, at best, provides information to aid character decisions. The entities contacted structure their answers to further their own purposes."With the limits of their knowledge". "'Unclear' is a legitimate answer". May provide more information. "At best". Can be used to further entity's own purposes.
You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about what the god or entity in question would want you to know from a spell with this much uncertainty worded into it. Yes, you have a lot of uses of Commune. What you don't get to decide is what the GM decides they actually tell you.
Good thing I can hit up multiple deities when unclear comes up as an answer huh? And it says the gods are not "necessarily" omniscient (this also implies some powerful beings on the outer planes *are* omniscient) which means for the most part they are, with some gaps.
Sorry, you don't like the spell. The way I'm using it completely RAW and valid though.
The fighter is Undetectable. You can't gather information about him, and that includes with Commune/Contact other plane...he can't be 'seen'.
It's a fail of a tactic.
Reword my example with 'south' instead of Absalom. The result is the same. Your group of players has NO CHOICE BUT TO GO SOUTH because you Communed and found out where they were going to go.
No, sorry, it doesn't work that way.
What you'd get with that list of questions is 'Unclear' or complete silence. I do like the spell, and RAW, it is quite balanced...it won't do what you think it does.
==Aelryinth
The fighter is Undetectable. You can't gather information about him, and that includes with Commune/Contact other plane...he can't be 'seen'.
It's a fail of a tactic.
Reword my example with 'south' instead of Absalom. The result is the same. Your group of players has NO CHOICE BUT TO GO SOUTH because you Communed and found out where they were going to go.
No, sorry, it doesn't work that way.
What you'd get with that list of questions is 'Unclear' or complete silence. I do like the spell, and RAW, it is quite balanced...it won't do what you think it does.
==Aelryinth
I'm not detecting him. I'm asking questions about where he will be. Those are different things. It absolutely does answer Yes/No questions reliably. That's literally what the spell does. The spell can absolutely determine the future, which may have the side effect of locking in choices. You may get an unclear answer, but again I keep firing Communes until I get a deity that *does* know.
@ Celanian: Or maybe the Earth to the Greeks simply didn't weigh that much. This is more likely the case since otherwise a mere tap from Hercules would chunky salsa anything and I don't see anything in his legend about leaving craters any time he touched something.
Greek gods are WAY more powerful than pathfinder gods. Atlas, a chump of a titan and Heracles, a mere demigod, were able to lift the Earth (6 times 10^24 kg) on their shoulders. That's roughly 350-400 Str. And pretty much any of the Greek gods were much more powerful than these 2. I doubt any pathfinder god can manifest 350+ Str except for Azathoth or maybe Rovagug.I know 3.5 isn't PF but in 3.5 deities needed a minimum of 1000 in their primary stat.
Uh, Deities and Demigods isn't one of the books I have on hand, but I'm 90% certain this is not the case. They have normal stats, albeit adjusted for the 20 additional outsider HD many have and magic items. I can't find anything about stat increases in the Divine Rules on the SRD either, so I'd like a citation on that.
@ Celanian: Oh no. A Hydra. Even a mythic hydra only clock in as a CR 9 which makes my estimate that Hercules is probably 9th level seem really spot on. Incidentally, I put Captain America at Level 8 with a template. And Ruby Rose at level 12.
Evidently, that is in fact that case. Sorry, but he had a challenge with the Hydra and I even used the Mythic one. CR 9-10 at best.
Also, lets not forget Wizards can create the Earth in Pathfinder. Starting at level 13.
Name a single CR 9 entity with 300+ Str.
Prove that lifting the Earth in Greek mythology requires a 300+ STR.
The fighter is Undetectable. You can't gather information about him, and that includes with Commune/Contact other plane...he can't be 'seen'.
No the fighter is not undetectable.
The fighter is undetectable WHEN INVISIBLE.
So, except if that fighter has a way to remain invisible all day, every day for the whole week, that fighter won't be undetectable, and thus Divination can target him as normal.
A little quick and dirty estimate to put things in perspective.
The great pyramid of Egypt is about 50 million tons in weight. The Greeks were well aware of it. 50m tons would require roughly 150 Str to lift. Egypt as a whole is well over 1 million times as heavy as the Great Pyramid by itself. So to lift Egypt would require at least 250 Str and probably more than that. And then adding all of North Africa, South Europe, the Middle East, Turkey, and the Mediterranean Sea would probably bring it to over 300 Str.
With the way the lifting charts work, every +10 Str is 4 times the lifting capacity so every 50 Str is roughly 1000 times the lifting capacity.
That ability doesn't translate well to PF. Hercules doesn't need some ridiculous STR to lift the earth, he just needs a rule that says "A mythic rank X character with say 25+ STR is capable of lifting the Greek "Earth". If Hercules was really strong enough to lift the actual Earth his primary tactic should have been dropping a small mountain on the Hydra.
He also struggled against a Mythic Hydra which is CR 9. So Hercules is definitely CR 9-10 in Pathfinder. And I still need proof that being able to lift the earth in Greek Mythology isn't tied to mythic ranks rather then STR score.
Herc fits the title of demigod.
Prove that lifting the Earth in Greek mythology requires a 300+ STR.6.580 sextillion tons is earths approximate weight.
Ancient greek philosophers did not assume the earth was a rock floating in space.
Herc would have lifted the relevant layer of Earth, and all that mattered was Greece, which was mainly islands.
Mythic hydra is the wrong monster. It says that the mythic hydra is "descended" from the very first of their kind. The Learnan Hydra would be that mythical ancestor and thus would be a lot more powerful. Also the mythic hydra has 7 heads and the Learnan has 9 heads. So you're comparing the wrong monster. You need to compare to an unstatted Primal Hydra. Since it's unstatted, I don't think you can find an appropriate CR without speculating.
Also, I showed proof of Hercule's strength. I pointed out the lifting table charts. If you don't think the rules as written apply to Hercules, you need to provide the proof that some combination of mythic abilities instead of Strength can lift 6E24 tons of weight.
I don't think 2 more heads will sufficiently inflate the CR to help your case. Hercules fought a 9 Headed Hydra. Those are only CR 8. I was using the Mythic version to be generous. And 9 headed Hydras aren't even the cream of the crop in PF. We have 12 headed ones that are CR 11 (so again he's not higher then this) and Cryo and Pyro variants that are CR 13. So Hercules fits best still around CR 9-10. I'm sorry, but the Earth thing is misleading.
Actually if we assume presocratic love and strife force effects between the sky and the earth as what Hercules had to lift, the exact force needed to do that could have been quite reasonable.
What I am trying to say is that you can't apply modern physics to tales told with ancient greek physics.
Face it, Hercules has 300+ Str based on acts he did in Greek Canon. 300+ Str translates to well above CR9.
I think I explain quite well why Hercules did not need to have 300+ strength in greek canon to lift the earth.
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Its hilarious how Anzyr's strict "RAI be damn! If you aren't playing Pathfinder purely RAW, and treating guidelines as immutable rules; you are WRONG!!!" stance goes away when someone turns RAW against his arguments.
Bit even better is how it can go.away for PORTIONS of his argument, but remain in full effect for others.
A 9 -headed hydras is CR 9, that is a solid immutable FACT.
Heracles couldn't possible have a 300+ STR. It doesn't matter what some table in the Rulebook sez!
Uh... No. My argument is that "Lifting the Earth" in Greek Mythology, as Rhedyn explains better then I can, is not running on the same physics as PF is. The same thing with Apollo dragging the Sun in the sky. Those are not the physics that Pathfinder assumes and trying to shoehorn them into the Pathfinder system leads to wonky results.
Hercules can lift the Earth in Greek Mythology. But there is 0 evidence he could do so using PF physics.
The reason I use the hydra, is because we know Hercules fought one. And we know what CR they are in Pathfinder. No need to shoehorn in a new set of physics for that comparison, making it more apt.
This also isn't a RAW or RAI issue. It's very subjective one. At no point have I said RAW Hercules is X, because guess what? There are no rules written on it.