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So, Daring champion gives you double your level in damage against targets you Challenge and are wielding a One-Handed or Light Piercing Weapon against.
Order of the Hammer gives you Non-lethal damage progression as a Monk, and then Hamatulatsu strike allows your unarmed strikes to deal piercing damage. The question is "Does doing piercing damage with your fists make them Piercing Weapons?"
My vote is yes, but anyway, that is the core of the build.
From there, since you are dealing Non-lethal damage, you can grab Enforcer and then on a Critical hit you deal something insane like Frightened Sickened and Shaken all at the same time for a round if you stick the check. If you followed that Crit up with a Stunning Fist...ooh boy do things get fun.
Anyway, this build seems pretty cool if it works. It seems to go online at level 3 as a human, which is pretty cool as well. Though a single level Monk dip gets you online instantly.
The main lack is the fact that you cannot flurry, but you have 2x your level to damage...which is pretty darn swell. Plus you can stack on Dragon Style and other fisticuff options to achieve success.
As a reminder, you have to deal Non-lethal damage to get the Monk scaling.
A second question arises as to whether or not a Monk Robe stacks with the scaling of the Order of the Hammer.
Anyway, this feels like an awesome fricking cavalier build. Thoughts?
Wow never noticed the Order of the Hammer. Pretty awesome all round package.
I'd been wanting to build a Dwarven daring Cavalier (mainly for the FCB) for quite some time. This might make it work both mechanically and flavor wise.
The big thing I'm seeing which you haven't mentioned is that unarmed strikes will allow you to use TWF with precise strike. This would however necessitate a dex build which costs yet another feat...prolly takes a while to get going but if you're adding 2.5 times your level on damage per hit it might be worth it.
just to warn you all - in the Pathfinder universe Hamatulatsu Strikers are female
Dot
This is just too cool.
I read up on TWF with unarmed strikes and precise strike. Looks like this is a bit controversial so you might expect table variation. It's prolly easier to justify with Flurry of Blows as you can just claim to be punching repeatedly with one fist.
This looks to be rather feat intensive but none the less I'd argue for a dex focus the main reason being TWF and the brawling armor enhancement which requires you to only wear light armor.
However either way you aren't gonna make this build happen without a Dip as otherwise you have to spend a feat on IUS which is a prereq for WF and Hamatulatsu Strike.
This here thread might give some ideas on how to make such a build work.
I'm thinking a one level dip into Sohei Monk and using an Agile Cestus with Brawling Armor might be the way to go here. However that kills the need for the Order of the Hammer.
I would like to see the build.
Is it viable with a 15 Point Buy?
Prolly not as you want 18 DEX and 14 CHA. Also you can't dump STR completly as that Agile Cestus is really expensive and won't be available before levels 5 or 6.
Here’s an idea for a 15 pt. buy build using Nine Ring Broadsword with Slashing Grace with Blade of Mercy/Enforcer Order of the Cockatrice combo. It has the advantage of being fully functional as of level 1 but forgoes brawling armor or Pummeling Charge (Til level 13). I kind of like it, looks like it should work pretty well for PFS.
Human Daring Champion of the Cockatrice X/ Sohei 1
Traits: Blade of Mercy, WIS booster
STR 8 DEX 18 CON 14 INT 11 WIS 12 CHA 7
1 DC1 WF (Nine Ring Broadsword) Slashing Grace
2 Sohei 1 Combat Reflexes, Flurry of Blows
3 DC2 Enforcer
4 DC3 Nimble
5 DC4 Panache, Deeds, Extra Panache
6 DC5
7 DC6 Iron Will
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Prolly not as you want 18 DEX and 14 CHA. Also you can't dump STR completly as that Agile Cestus is really expensive and won't be available before levels 5 or 6.I would like to see the build.
Is it viable with a 15 Point Buy?
Why would you get a cestus if your unarmed damage goes up? You can't use a cestus & increased unarmed damage. You'd have to get an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists.
I do not believe that two weapon fighting is allowed with precise strike, period. It says you cannot use your other hand to attack, and unlike a Monk the cavalier must use their fists when attacking with an unarmed strike.
Regardless, strength build all the way. At least for me, I want to use my feats sparingly to punch people.
The ability to later use the other Ham-named feat to get a grapple check with your fists works well with this idea as well since you get a free grapple check if you full attack, which means you can impale and damage on the same round.
Additionally, pummeling style would work I believe, since Lances work. I'd have to go look at the wording and I'd expect table variation.
The real question is if a monks robe works on this character, because that would be awesome.
I do not believe that two weapon fighting is allowed with precise strike, period. It says you cannot use your other hand to attack, and unlike a Monk the cavalier must use their fists when attacking with an unarmed strike.
The thing is if you do not dip monk you are gonna need to to pick up 3 feats just to be using precise strike with your build (IUS, WF(IUS) and Hamtsulatsu Strike). So the earliest you get to Enforcer is level 5.
By dipping Monk you can save yourself one of these feats (and get Combat reflexes which you want for Parry anyways) and use precise strike with Flurry. So a monk dip seems like a no-brainer.
Insisting on STR when you likely want to be wearing light armor and have Weapon Finesse as a free Bonus Feat just seems a bit suicidal.
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By dipping Monk you can save yourself one of these feats (and get Combat reflexes which you want for Parry anyways) and use precise strike with Flurry. So a monk dip seems like a no-brainer.
Not to mention +2 to all saves. Just make sure to make the monk level in Sohei. (Monk is a great 1-2 level dip, but as a dip it should always be either Sohei or MoMS.)
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You can also dump the hamatulatsu feat by using a cestus.
Cestus: The cestus is a glove of leather or thick cloth that covers the wielder from mid-finger to mid-forearm. The close combat weapon is reinforced with metal plates over the fingers and often lined with wicked spikes along the backs of the hands and wrists. While wearing a cestus, you are considered armed and your unarmed attacks deal normal damage. If you are proficient with a cestus, your unarmed strikes may deal bludgeoning or piercing damage. Monks are proficient with the cestus. When using a cestus, your fingers are mostly exposed, allowing you to wield or carry items in that hand, but the constriction of the weapon at your knuckles gives you a –2 penalty on all precision-based tasks involving that hand (such as opening locks).
You just ignore any cestus weapon stats, but change your unarmed damage to piercing.
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You just ignore any cestus weapon stats, but change your unarmed damage to piercing.
I'm pretty sure there was an FAQ clarifiying that won't work i.e. a cestus will always deal 1d4.
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I'm pretty sure there was an FAQ clarifiying that won't work i.e. a cestus will always deal 1d4.You just ignore any cestus weapon stats, but change your unarmed damage to piercing.
That'd make monks/brawlers considerably better. 1/2 price enhancements - and nothing would keep it and AoMF effects from both working. Unfortunately - it doesn't work that way.
Though I think you can use it for the piercing damage to work with Daring Cavalier - you can't use the enhancement from the cestus and retain monk unarmed damage.
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I'm pretty sure there was an FAQ clarifiying that won't work i.e. a cestus will always deal 1d4.You just ignore any cestus weapon stats, but change your unarmed damage to piercing.
Yes, but you aren't actually using the cestus as a weapon. You are using your unarmed strike in all ways. You do not use the cestus damage, crit profile, weapon materials, or enchantments. The cestus is simply modifying the damage type of an unarmed strike.
Yes, but you aren't actually using the cestus as a weapon. You are using your unarmed strike in all ways. You do not use the cestus damage, crit profile, weapon materials, or enchantments. The cestus is simply modifying the damage type of an unarmed strike.I'm pretty sure there was an FAQ clarifiying that won't work i.e. a cestus will always deal 1d4.You just ignore any cestus weapon stats, but change your unarmed damage to piercing.
Seems like a very iffy interpretation...
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Yes, but you aren't actually using the cestus as a weapon. You are using your unarmed strike in all ways. You do not use the cestus damage, crit profile, weapon materials, or enchantments. The cestus is simply modifying the damage type of an unarmed strike.I'm pretty sure there was an FAQ clarifiying that won't work i.e. a cestus will always deal 1d4.You just ignore any cestus weapon stats, but change your unarmed damage to piercing.
Right - I agree then. I thought you were referring to my previous post when I questioned Alex Mack on his mention of enhancing the cestus.
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Seems like a very iffy interpretation...Yes, but you aren't actually using the cestus as a weapon. You are using your unarmed strike in all ways. You do not use the cestus damage, crit profile, weapon materials, or enchantments. The cestus is simply modifying the damage type of an unarmed strike.I'm pretty sure there was an FAQ clarifiying that won't work i.e. a cestus will always deal 1d4.You just ignore any cestus weapon stats, but change your unarmed damage to piercing.
It's the only one that makes sense until they errata that line out of existence.
Daring champions are proficient in light and medium armor, which means they can wear Mithral medium armor and still gain their nimble buff. Before then, even with nimble, a breastplate is a better option than a chain shirt assuming you are going strength based so you deal at least some damage early. Since you are likely on 14 dex anyway. With a monk dip you Cannot flurry because you lose that option by wearing armor, so it is merely a dip for the feats.
A dip, which I mentioned, was a good idea. A single level of Monk or Two levels for MoMs is probably a good idea. Just don't pretend that flurry or the AC bonuses matter. Because you are going to want actual armor.
Regardless, strength works well even for Swashbucklers. Just because you get a free feat does not mean you must make use of it. Additionally an amulet of might fists costs a bunch to make, and can only go up to 5 levels of enchantment. No reason to waste one on agile. Then another feat for agile maneuvers to take advantage of the free grapple/sunder checks?
No, especially not when you can go Dragon style regardless as to whether or not pummeling style works for huge fist damage.
I could see a DEx build working, but I think that strength is a completely viable option.
Additionally, I realized that the Order of the Hammer cavalier is one of the few characters that can make use of heavy armor and unarmed strike damage. And charge damage. That could be a fun build.
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Daring champions are proficient in light and medium armor, which means they can wear Mithral medium armor and still gain their nimble buff. Before then, even with nimble, a breastplate is a better option than a chain shirt assuming you are going strength based so you deal at least some damage early. Since you are likely on 14 dex anyway. With a monk dip you Cannot flurry because you lose that option by wearing armor, so it is merely a dip for the feats.
Not if it's a Sohei monk - they can flurry in light armor.
Not if it's a Sohei monk - they can flurry in light armor.
This. Additionally you can not attach brawling to a mithral Breastplate.
Also weapon finesse allows you to grapple with dex. That might not be the case for Champion Finesse I'm not sure.
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Not if it's a Sohei monk - they can flurry in light armor.This. Additionally you can not attach brawling to a mithral Breastplate.
Also weapon finesse allows you to grapple with dex. That might not be the case for Champion Finesse I'm not sure.
Weapon Finesse allows you to use weapon maneuvers with dex. To grapple with dex you need agile maneuvers.
Edit: Even with agile maneuvers, the grappled condition gives a -4 to dex, so you will have a -2 penalty to your CMB for dex-based grappling after the initial check. It's not the best idea to be a dex based grappler unless you are tiny and have a massive DEX, or are a Tetori who ignores the dex penalty for being grappled.
The daring champion archetype gives you precise strike, which gives you level to damage with l/1h piercing weapons. Then you challenge them which gives you level to damage.
Thus you have 2x level in damage against challenged targets.
One last thing worth noting. You do not get damage to level with l/1h weapons until level 4. So it is not too bad that it takes some time to get Piercing fists.
So I did a DPR comparison of a straigth Daring Champion versus one with a Sohei Dip vs AC 20(CR7). I figured level 7 would be a good point to compare as both have gained their second iterative by then. I'm assuming 20 STR, +2 AoMF and Brawling Armor here. For simplicity sake I'm not factoring in any additional feats that the Sohei has over the standard Cavalier.
Sohei DPR 43.08 +1 to hit adds 4.14 DPR +1 Damage adds 1.63 DPR Extra Attack adds 15.95 DPR
Daring Champion DPR 32.98 +1 to hit adds 2.87 DPR +1 Damage adds 1.21 DPR Extra Attack adds 20.07
An interesting observation is the high value +1 to hit adds to DPR. This means WF is far from being a feat tax for this build. For the Sohei we actually have a situation where Power Attack is a trap.
For a single hit the straight Cavalier comes out ahead (20.07 vs. 17.27 DPR). This is kinda relevant as this damage will apply to Riposte attacks (which should come up most rounds).
The only issue I can see here is if the GM raises concerns about how one could possibly do non-lethal Piercing damage, but I think you could easily argue that these mechanics represent manipulation of pressure points/nerve strikes.
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An interesting observation is the high value +1 to hit adds to DPR. This means WF is far from being a feat tax for this build. For the Sohei we actually have a situation where Power Attack is a trap.
That's not really surprising. It's rare that I play a martial character who doesn't have weapon focus by level 3-5, and power attack is mostly only situationally useful when not two-handing. I don't think it'd be worth both a feat and keeping a dex build's strength that high.
Frankly - if you get the Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists - the strength can be dumped, though you might want to grab the trait which makes your strength count as 2 points higher for encumbrance.
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The only issue I can see here is if the GM raises concerns about how one could possibly do non-lethal Piercing damage, but I think you could easily argue that these mechanics represent manipulation of pressure points/nerve strikes.
Well - it wouldn't work if you're using a cestus instead of the hamatulatsu feat. Then it'd have to be lethal.
The only issue I can see here is if the GM raises concerns about how one could possibly do non-lethal Piercing damage, but I think you could easily argue that these mechanics represent manipulation of pressure points/nerve strikes.Well - it wouldn't work if you're using a cestus instead of the hamatulatsu feat. Then it'd have to be lethal.
Btw there never was an FAQ on the Cestus merely a post by SKR explicitly calling out the fact that the cestus does not in any way modify unarmed strikes. As I'd want to use this for PFS I'm not sure whether I want to deal with that kind of insecurity...
Edit: Just noticed Hamtsulatu is banned in PFS...
Snake Style is much better than Hamtsulatu anyway, since it can be achieved at level 3.
Well the critical hit part of hamatsulatu is pretty nice. And as my DPR calculation shows picking up WF isn't all that bad of an idea.
So what can be done with the free grappling/sundering maneuver?
Also any way to make use of Teamwork feats? I heard there's a new way of aquiring a Valet Familiar in the Familiar companion. However apparently it also requires 2 feats.
If it's for PFS you're stuck using Snake Style, Boar Style, or the rules dubious cestus/emei piercer, as hamatulatsu is still not PFS legal.Besides - Snake Style is an awesome feat - the piercing damage is just gravy.
I'd argue that Parry Riposte is more awesome, but they do complement each other to a certain extent.
What matters is the Piercing unarmed damage, which is constant ^_^
And while Hamatulatsu strike is really cool, I'd rather have the build online faster since I tend to play lower level campaigns.
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I'd argue that Parry Riposte is more awesome, but they do complement each other to a certain extent.If it's for PFS you're stuck using Snake Style, Boar Style, or the rules dubious cestus/emei piercer, as hamatulatsu is still not PFS legal.Besides - Snake Style is an awesome feat - the piercing damage is just gravy.
Parry Riposte would usually be a smidge higher - and it can be used more than once a round with combat reflexes. (Parry is one reason I DO NOT suggest power attack with swashbucklers.) However, Parry is more limited as it only works against melee attacks - is penalized vs bigger opponents - plus it uses up panache.
Parry and Snake Style mesh entirely - and between the two of them you could practically ignore AC :P The one disadvantage is that you can't use Snake Style & Riposte in the same round as they both use immediate actions.
PSA: Snake Style only works once per round against one attack.
Did anyone suggest otherwise?
Why not take the MoMS dip since you can just do a single level dip for Snake Style and Unarmed Strike, go for X levels of Cavalier, and then return for a second level of MoMS to pick up Pummeling Charge as soon as you qualify?
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Why not take the MoMS dip since you can just do a single level dip for Snake Style and Unarmed Strike, go for X levels of Cavalier, and then return for a second level of MoMS to pick up Pummeling Charge as soon as you qualify?
Not bad - but one reason for the previously suggested dip into Sohei was for the flurry to mesh with Precise Stirke - MoMS gives up flurry, and therefore one of the main reasons for Pummeling Strike anyway.
Snake Fang looks like it'd be good here particularly in combnation with Parry and riposte. But it doesn't come online before 9th level unless you go for MoMS.
Yeah pummeling pounce sans flurry seems unexiting. Early acces to Snake Fang might make MOMS more worthwhile however.
Also the MoMS dip has the advantage of allowing you to still wield a buckler. Overall there's a lot to consider here...
Edit: Best way to dip MoMS for Snake Fang would be level 3. Take 2 levels of Cavalier with your third level feat take Snake Style and your MOMS Bonus feat could be Snake Fang. At level 1 you could pick Enforcer or Combat Reflexes.
So I read up on grappling a bit and on armor spikes which luckily are light piercing weapons and thus qualify for precise strike.
So my question is. If I initiate a grapple as a free action would I get the precise strike damage from initiating the grapple via spiked armor?
An interesting note is that with Grappling style combined with Hamatula Strike and piercing fists you could impale opponents with one hand and continue to beat them with your other during a full attack, and then make the second free grapple check at the end of your full attack to attempt to pin or deal more damage before your opponent has even had the chance to escape.