I haven't played S&S much and haven't seen Potion of Flying and Potion of Heroism yet. What are their powers? Tot Flask I know.
You should use Man's promise as your ship. Keep the bonus from the potions of heroism going on as long as possible.
Potion of Flying is a one-shot Haste (it allows any character at the location to move/explore by banishing it). Potion of Heroism can be displayed to give 1d6 to any check by a character at the location, and is banished at the end of your turn.
You can use Tot Flask to search for them, allowing Damiel to search for them sooner. Potion of Healing or any other shuffler then pulls them back on top.
The Man's Promise allowed you to do the PoHeroism shenanigans anyway at the risk of possibly failing the mission due to lack of blessings; the only thing Potion of Flying gives you is the ability to do it with a little less risk.
I use a similar deck (though I would always take Jack Scrimshaw over the imp and I have more and better bombs), but I would rarely keep my hand size that low. You could run into serious trouble from direct damage. A Blood hag potentially and a bad healing roll basically shots you down, Ishtoreth mgiht kill you as well.
I love the deck, and the hand you describe is great for theory-craft, but if you keep running like that you are asking for a death.
It's certainly powerful, but remember that there are restrictions on item uses and what you can play during an encounter. For example, you can't play a PoHeroism during your encounter, nor can you use your Tot Flask during your encounter, as they don't directly affect that encounter's checks or allow you to evade. You'll have to do those beforehand in order to prepare for your exploration. You also can't play more than 1 of the same card type per check.
Edit: found some clarification. http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gu#v5748eaic9sr3
"Activating a power on a displayed card also counts as playing it."
So you couldn't use a PoHeroism's power and another item on the same check, nor could you use two PoHeroisms on the same check. You also can't use your PoHerosim to add 1d6 when you use your Alchemist's Fire for a combat check, but you could use it to add 1d6 to a combat check with a weapon.
What I'm not sure about is if you can use your activated PoHeroism to attempt to recharge your Tot Flask (or to attempt to recharge the item you put at risk-of-discard for the Alchemist's Fire craft skill bonus), since it's a separate check but the same step.
You can only play one of each type of card per check, but displaying the potion of Heroism happens before your check, so it does not count as playing an item.
Sorry, I edited my post instead of replying again. Please see my edit.
I think using a displayed cards power counts as using that card type, so you couldn't use a PoHeroism's power and another item on the same check, nor could you use two PoHeroisms on the same check.
In another thread (here), Vic made a distinction between a displayed card you activate when you play it (such as Toxic Cloud), and a displayed card you activate when you use it (such as the Spheres of Destruction). I think Potion of Heroism is activated when played, so you could receive the bonus from two previously played Potions of Heroism on the same check, and play another item on that check as well.
In the same vein, the other actions you question seem to be permitted.
Huh, I hadn't seen that. Multiple PoHeroisms activated on the same character seems... overpowered, but legal.
It's certainly powerful, but remember that there are restrictions on item uses and what you can play during an encounter. For example, you can't play a PoHeroism during your encounter, nor can you use your Tot Flask during your encounter, as they don't directly affect that encounter's checks or allow you to evade.
Why can't you use PoHeroism during an encounter? It's giving you 1d6 to your check; I don't see how it giving you 1d6 to other checks as well makes it illegal to play.
Why can't you use PoHeroism during an encounter? It's giving you 1d6 to your check; I don't see how it giving you 1d6 to other checks as well makes it illegal to play.
I thought you could only play cards that directly affect the check, and this was more of a buff you played before you rolled your check. But I went and found the encounter a card text again:
Encountering a Card... During each of these steps, you and the other players may perform only the specified actions. Players may only play cards or use powers that relate to each step (or relate to cards played or powers used in that step). Each player may play no more than 1 card of each type during each step.
So displayed a card that gives buffs to checks probably does count as "relate to that step" whereas Cure doesn't, which is what I was confused about a few days ago.
I use a similar deck (though I would always take Jack Scrimshaw over the imp and I have more and better bombs), but I would rarely keep my hand size that low. You could run into serious trouble from direct damage. A Blood hag potentially and a bad healing roll basically shots you down, Ishtoreth mgiht kill you as well.
I love the deck, and the hand you describe is great for theory-craft, but if you keep running like that you are asking for a death.
I think you're really underestimating the imp, here. Damiel doesn't need a boost to his bombs, but a card that gives you two cards back (or cycles for free) is incredible.
I think you're really underestimating the imp, here. Damiel doesn't need a boost to his bombs, but a card that gives you two cards back (or cycles for free) is incredible.I use a similar deck (though I would always take Jack Scrimshaw over the imp and I have more and better bombs), but I would rarely keep my hand size that low. You could run into serious trouble from direct damage. A Blood hag potentially and a bad healing roll basically shots you down, Ishtoreth mgiht kill you as well.
I love the deck, and the hand you describe is great for theory-craft, but if you keep running like that you are asking for a death.
I agree. I think we all know how powerful draw power CAN be *cough cough Radillo cough restoration cough* excuse me. Although, since the Imp is in the Ally slot, a high explore power slot, it's probably unwise to just recharge it for that one card unless your health is low - playing it like that is essentially playing with one less ally in your deck. No, the Imp's best use is in drawing two cards. Especially if you heal it back.
The craft check doesn't just boost your combat check with bombs (though that is a nice benefit), it also boosts your recharge roll for Tot Flasks, Bombs, and all of your spells. And making that recharge roll gives you the chance to draw additional cards.
The imp ends up either in your discard pile, recharged, or shuffled back into your deck. If you have healing or recharge the card, that means Imp ends up reducing the odds of your grenadier power letting you draw cards.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't use the imp, but I am saying that Damiel isn't the best place for it. If you putting the imp on Damiel, you are thinking about your character in isolation, not the party as a whole. The imp helps any deck, particularly fast cycling decks with access to healing. Scrimshaw only helps Damiel. I would much rather give Skrishaw to Dameil because of the unique benefits he offers, and see the imp given to another character.
The imp ends up either in your discard pile, recharged, or shuffled back into your deck. If you have healing or recharge the card, that means Imp ends up reducing the odds of your grenadier power letting you draw cards.
This is a good point. I've not actually played Damiel yet, so I forget some of the nuances and had to go look up just what this power did. This power actually lends weight to the idea of allies that bury themselves.
The imp helps any deck, particularly fast cycling decks with access to healing.
Doesn't that description fit Damiel exactly? :P
I really hope to encounter an Imp at some point. I'd prefer that to repeatedly finding him as I'm banishing cards from a closed location. :(
I feel just as bad - I'm playing the lovely Lini, who can't make room in her deck for an imp. :/
I got Imp last scenario :D decided to keep it in Olenjack's deck, but I might have to try it out with Damiel now.
I feel just as bad - I'm playing the lovely Lini, who can't make room in her deck for an imp. :/
I got Imp last scenario :D decided to keep it in Olenjack's deck, but I might have to try it out with Damiel now.
I encountered an Eagle and got it first try in our current RoRL game; admittedly this was all the way into AP5, not 4, but still, I'm going to count my blessings to the Ally gods.
I would trade Joey Jack Scrimsham for an Imp in a heartbeat. Since I don't use bombs, and our ship never wrecks, he's pretty much only to ensure I don't flub my tot flask recharge, which is becoming less and less likely as skill feats accrue. Besides which, even if it does, Tot Flask/Potion of Healing keeps your discard so small that a discarded Flask usually comes back into the rotation pretty quick. Most of the time I just burn Jimmy James for an explore halfway through the scenario because I'm sick of him sitting in my hand doing nothing.
(but I'd take both, whenever I run out of Item and/or Blessing feats to purchase)
I suspect that 2 Potions of heroism at a time are not the designer's intent.
But because they are displayed they are nicely in a loophole right now.
I encountered this very conundrum in my own campaign and ruled against both at once.
People seem to misunderstand my position; imp is a fabulous card. And I'm not disagreeing with the fact that its amazing on Damiel. What I am saying is that its amazing on lots of people.
I play Damiel in a four person party with Alahazra, Lirianne and Seltyiel. In that party, Imp is at least as strong, and I would argue stronger, on Alahazra as it is on Damiel. I am convinced that a party in which Alahazra has the Imp and Damiel has Skrimshaw will outperform a party in which Damiel has Imp and Alahazra has some other ally.
I'm not in anyway disputing the power of the imp, I just want us to think about the party in aggregate, and the limitation of one Imp per party, rather than discussing isolated individual characters.
I suspect that 2 Potions of heroism at a time are not the designer's intent.
If they wanted to not have 2 PoHeroism in play at once, they would have just put one of them into the Wormwood Mutiny deck.
I dislike the "designer's intent" thing because absent a designer actually saying something about it it's impossible to prove so it's just an appeal to authority at that point. If you're going to assert something being overpowered, do it systematically and with proof, like Orbis did with double Restoration.
But really, 1 PoHeroism is already powerful enough, I would probably split the two to stretch its power over a longer period of time rather than load both of them onto a single super turn. You do need the extra explores to take advantage of it.
zeroth
I did say it was a suspicion on my part. I believe that the display mechanism allows a two cards of a type loophole that was not intended
I disagree. It would be very easy indeed to close such a loophole if it existed. A quick rule added to the rulebook, or on a card-per-card basis, something like "you can only benefit from one PoHeroism at a time."
Also, I think Vic explicitly stated that using continuous effects, like strength, don't count as using your one spell-per-check, which would be the counter argument to using two of these simultaneously, I believe.
I agree on Strength spell, that would make no sense. However how about 2 strengths? That's actually the better example.
I agree on Strength spell, that would make no sense. However how about 2 strengths? That's actually the better example.
I see literally no reason, balance or otherwise, not to allow two strength spells to work.
And PoHeroism may have balance issues with multiples of them, but that's just a natural extension. It's superior to Strength.
Regardless, I see all of this as an issue with Damiel, not the PoHeroism. S&S potions are crazy good, but balanced by banishment. Damiel gets around this too easily.
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And regardless of all that, so what if Damiel's too good? There are 48 characters out now (I think?) and only two of them (Lini and Damiel) are considered OP, and even then not by a ton (seriously, if you think about it, they're not crazy amounts better). A 23 out of 24 success rate is pretty darn good if you ask me, especially for something as widely varying as the characters are.
If Damiel really bugs you, ask your players not to use him. If they really want to play an alchemist, ask them to use him in the RotR Campaign, where he's more balanced. Maybe even add a class deck to give him an extra potion or two, but really, he should be fine.
Orbis, perhaps you are addressing all that to the OP. I am just commenting on my take on the rules as is.
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Just general commentary. I started addressing you and then warmed to the subject. Apologies if I seem harsh.
I agree on Strength spell, that would make no sense. However how about 2 strengths? That's actually the better example.I see literally no reason, balance or otherwise, not to allow two strength spells to work.
And PoHeroism may have balance issues with multiples of them, but that's just a natural extension. It's superior to Strength.
Regardless, I see all of this as an issue with Damiel, not the PoHeroism. S&S potions are crazy good, but balanced by banishment. Damiel gets around this too easily.
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And regardless of all that, so what if Damiel's too good? There are 48 characters out now (I think?) and only two of them (Lini and Damiel) are considered OP, and even then not by a ton (seriously, if you think about it, they're not crazy amounts better). A 23 out of 24 success rate is pretty darn good if you ask me, especially for something as widely varying as the characters are.
If Damiel really bugs you, ask your players not to use him. If they really want to play an alchemist, ask them to use him in the RotR Campaign, where he's more balanced. Maybe even add a class deck to give him an extra potion or two, but really, he should be fine.
I find this funny, because those were some of my reasons for thinking restoration didn't need to be nerfed :P (Of course, that was before the organized play was announced, so I'm retroactively in favor of it now)
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I see literally no reason, balance or otherwise, not to allow two strength spells to work.
My broken Ezren deck (cycling two each of Detect Magic and Augury) relies on displaying multiple Strength spells. With an Incendiary Cloud and Wand of Enervation he can punch harpy henchmen to death (amongst other henchmen).
Displayed cards are great because they recharge at the end of turn, allowing you to have a thin deck during the turn. Playing them pulls more cards from your deck. Eventually you are holding onto you attack spells while doing infinite Auguries to find henchmen and villains.
Swipe is good for picking up useful things, but they can't stay in your hand past the end of the turn.
I find this funny, because those were some of my reasons for thinking restoration didn't need to be nerfed :P (Of course, that was before the organized play was announced, so I'm retroactively in favor of it now)I agree on Strength spell, that would make no sense. However how about 2 strengths? That's actually the better example.I see literally no reason, balance or otherwise, not to allow two strength spells to work.
And PoHeroism may have balance issues with multiples of them, but that's just a natural extension. It's superior to Strength.
Regardless, I see all of this as an issue with Damiel, not the PoHeroism. S&S potions are crazy good, but balanced by banishment. Damiel gets around this too easily.
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And regardless of all that, so what if Damiel's too good? There are 48 characters out now (I think?) and only two of them (Lini and Damiel) are considered OP, and even then not by a ton (seriously, if you think about it, they're not crazy amounts better). A 23 out of 24 success rate is pretty darn good if you ask me, especially for something as widely varying as the characters are.
If Damiel really bugs you, ask your players not to use him. If they really want to play an alchemist, ask them to use him in the RotR Campaign, where he's more balanced. Maybe even add a class deck to give him an extra potion or two, but really, he should be fine.
That is ironic. XD
I feel that there's a difference between asking someone to make a different choice at the beginning of the campaign and asking them not to use a card that can be found during the campaign, however, personally.
I would also argue that the original Resto was more broken than Damiel.
I see literally no reason, balance or otherwise, not to allow two strength spells to work.My broken Ezren deck (cycling two each of Detect Magic and Augury) relies on displaying multiple Strength spells. With an Incendiary Cloud and Wand of Enervation he can punch harpy henchmen to death (amongst other henchmen).
Displayed cards are great because they recharge at the end of turn, allowing you to have a thin deck during the turn. Playing them pulls more cards from your deck. Eventually you are holding onto you attack spells while doing infinite Auguries to find henchmen and villains.
Swipe is good for picking up useful things, but they can't stay in your hand past the end of the turn.
That's a cool combo deck. Although if we were to argue power levels with it, I would say the problem was more with Ezren than with Strength. But that would delve back into the whole mess with Radillo and whether or not Ezren should have the same errata, and we've already been there before.
Finally had the Damiel dream turn (DDT?) I was waiting for. Starting a hand with two Potions of Heroism and a Potion of Flying, he blew them all on Jirelle so she could power through the Sea Fort (7 explores, using a combination of allies in her hand/Immortal Dreamstone/her acquire+explore power), then PoF over to Shark Island and close that one too (b/c the henchman was first card) all in the same turn. Felt reallllly nice. Didn't even have to use the Potion of Healing or Tot Flask I also drew on the first turn.
Finally had the Damiel dream turn (DDT?) I was waiting for. Starting a hand with two Potions of Heroism and a Potion of Flying, he blew them all on Jirelle so she could power through the Sea Fort (7 explores, using a combination of allies in her hand/Immortal Dreamstone/her acquire+explore power), then PoF over to Shark Island and close that one too (b/c the henchman was first card) all in the same turn. Felt reallllly nice. Didn't even have to use the Potion of Healing or Tot Flask I also drew on the first turn.
You could've even lived the dreamier dream: Tot Flask up your Potion of Flying you just recharged, and send Jirelle to yet another fun location. Use those PoHero's for all they're worth!
But they wouldn't be in the same location anymore in that case.
w/ 2 Potions of Flying and a Tot Flask.
PoF Jirelle
PoF Myself
Pof Jirelle again. :D
3x locations closed.
But they wouldn't be in the same location anymore in that case.
Maybe I misunderstand the ship rules, but can't Damiel go with her when she flies, since Jirelle is piloting the ship and can therefore drag him along?
I wasn't even thinking about that, because the ship was anchored. But I'm pretty sure in that scenario the ship is anchored at the Sea Fort, where they were.
It could've been so beautiful. :(
The only check on Damiel's power is your willingness to endure a metric ton of shuffling. By AP4, Damiel can go infinite, generally on his first turn, and certainly on his second. And unlike other infinite combs Damiel doesn't need to discard a ton of cards to do it.
That's probably what bothers me most about Damiel, is the easy infinite. I may have to forever close off the grenadier role in my group. :/
You just jealous because his infinite combo is easy to trigger than Lini's old restoration combo ;)
I use a similar deck (though I would always take Jack Scrimshaw over the imp and I have more and better bombs), but I would rarely keep my hand size that low. You could run into serious trouble from direct damage. A Blood hag potentially and a bad healing roll basically shots you down, Ishtoreth mgiht kill you as well.
I love the deck, and the hand you describe is great for theory-craft, but if you keep running like that you are asking for a death.
So, what you're saying is that Damiel needs enough spellcaster team-mates to let him have spells that display until end of turn = hand size, so that even a total hand-wipe+immediate-hand-reset is survivable.
As a bonus, a Speed/Strength/etc.'d Damiel is even sillier :).
Maybe Potion of Flying should go the same route as Restoration? Reveal, resolve the effects, then banish/recharge at the end of your turn.