I've got a Paladin character who I haven't played in a couple of years, but his last adventure got him to level 3. I was brainstorming what I could do with him to make him a little more interesting to play (he was built as a sword and board tank), and I'm looking at multi-classing into Swashbuckler from here.
Calomel the Mercurial
Human Paladin of Shelyn 2/Swashbuckler (Mysterious Avenger) 1
17/13/12/7/12/16
Traits: Observant, Deft Dodger
1: Dodge, Toughness, smite evil, detect evil
2: divine grace, lay on hands
3: Feat???, swashbuckler's finesse, panache (opportune parry and riposte, dodging panache, derring-do)
Right now he's sitting at 24 AC with +1 full plate and a heavy wooden shield (I'll switch out to a buckler before I get precise strike, the only class feature that forbids a heavier shield), and has +7 on all his saves. Pretty solid.
For the record, the only Swashbuckler class features that don't work for him are swashbuckler's finesse (who cares? He's got Strength), dodging panache (he's got good AC in full plate), nimble (again, don't need the AC boost), and charmed life (because the Cha bonus won't stack with divine grace). The Mysterious Avenger archetype trades out nimble, and lets me use charmed life on AC (in addition to giving me 3 more uses). That's pretty good, but I do also lose my bonus feat and free Improved Critical.
My current plan is to go with a morningstar as my main weapon, just to be weird. That means I don't miss the lack of Improved Critical as much, and the d8 damage die puts me at a sweet spot for enlarge person if I so choose.
Here's what I'm still mulling over:
1) Is the Mysterious Avenger archetype worth it for me? Is the loss of a bonus feat and a weaker Swashbuckler Weapon Training too much to make Greater Charmed Life worth it?
2) What should my third-level feat be? I'm considering Power Attack, but it may not be necessary with precise strike and eventually an answering weapon. Since I won't be getting as many crits, would Extra Panache be better? Or something else entirely (like Shield Focus)?
The way I'm looking at it, the only reason to not go Daring Champion instead is because you want the deeds at the level you are at instead of at level 4. Which is an understandable choice (you gotta enjoy playing up to level 6 as well).
Hmm. I could go into Daring Champion, and take Amateur Swashbuckler at level 3 for opportune parry and riposte, which would be converted to Extra Panache once I get Panache at Cavalier level 4.
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I don't think it'd be very good. You're giving up all of the reasons to go strength instead of dex.
1. 1.5x strength for a two-handed weapon. To get precise strike you're going one-handed anway.
2. Higher damage. Not an issue since swashbucklers can get slashing grace for the cost of a single feat.
Basically - you're saving on the cost of a single feat (slashing grace) and giving up all of the secondary advantages of a high dex. (Touch AC/Initiative/Reflex/Skills) Not to mention having the disadvantages of heavy armor. (Slow speed/armor check penalty.)
Basically - it'll be playable (I've seen worse builds) but it will in nearly all ways be inferior to a dex swashbuckler.
(I could see a strength swashbuckler being higher damage in the playtest - especially at low levels - because slashing grace didn't exist yet.)
how do i post a thread? i need to know if an inquisitor can learn druid spells.
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how do i post a thread? i need to know if an inquisitor can learn druid spells.First - no they can't. They have their own spell list.
Well, they can add druid spells to the inquisitor list if they are a Sasmaran, and they can learn two orisons with the Nature Magic feat.
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Well, they can add druid spells to the inquisitor list if they are a Sasmaran, and they can learn two orisons with the Nature Magic feat.how do i post a thread? i need to know if an inquisitor can learn druid spells.First - no they can't. They have their own spell list.
Technically yes - but those are pretty extreme exceptions. (Who would burn a feat on some orisons?)
Anyway - enough thread derailment!
I don't think it'd be very good. You're giving up all of the reasons to go strength instead of dex.
1. 1.5x strength for a two-handed weapon. To get precise strike you're going one-handed anway.
2. Higher damage. Not an issue since swashbucklers can get slashing grace for the cost of a single feat.
Basically - you're saving on the cost of a single feat (slashing grace) and giving up all of the secondary advantages of a high dex. (Touch AC/Initiative/Reflex/Skills) Not to mention having the disadvantages of heavy armor. (Slow speed/armor check penalty.)
Basically - it'll be playable (I've seen worse builds) but it will in nearly all ways be inferior to a dex swashbuckler.
(I could see a strength swashbuckler being higher damage in the playtest - especially at low levels - because slashing grace didn't exist yet.)
I know it's not optimal, but I'm looking for ways to leverage the strengths it does have, and minimize the weaknesses.
2) What should my third-level feat be? I'm considering Power Attack, but it may not be necessary with precise strike and eventually an answering weapon. Since I won't be getting as many crits, would Extra...
Well, since we are throwing out all the 'traditional' swashbuckler concepts (oh, my favorite hobby), I might as well say this- get power attack.
It is important since the way precise strike scales is not meant to replace damage boosters like power attack- it is mostly meant to make it so that 1 handed weapons get the same damage as 2 handed weapons when power attack is thrown in.
The ability is there to make sure that swashbucklers are on par with other martial characters in terms of basic style. Swashbuckler's weapon training is the ability that boosts your actual damage.
The only reason why most people on this forum hate putting power attack in is because of parry and riposte. And again, you have shown that you are more than willing to throw out abilities for basic functionality. So just use precise strike work to make non TWF sword and board hit on par with a 2 handed weapon.
Here's another idea: I could go into Kata Master/Master of Many Styles monk, to pick up the Panache pool with the deeds I want, plus a bonus style feat (Crane Style? Panther Style?). It would also boost my saves nicely, but at the cost of a BAB. A second level would get me another style feat that I could fuse with it, and Evasion. Hmm...
Evasion won't work in full plate, pretty sure it's not worth it.
Ah, good catch. However I could stack a third archetype, Monk of the Sacred Mountain (double-check me, but I think they all stack) to replace evasion with Toughness and +1 natural armor (I guess I would retrain the Toughness I already have).
So for a 2-level diversion into monk, I'm gaining:
- +2 to all saves
- 4 (count 'em, 4!) bonus feats, including Crane Style and Panther Style (or possibly Crane Wing), Toughness, and IUS
- Panache Pool with opportune parry and riposte deed
- +1 AC
- About 50 cool points
For the cost of:
- +1 BAB
- 1d6 Lay on Hands
- Delaying mercies, spellcasting, and smite progression by 2 levels
I'm liking it!
Wow that is a good trade... Weirdest Paladin I've ever seen, but seems effective.
Upon further review of the Style feats, I'm leaning toward either Archon Style + Diversion to protect my allies and give them free attacks, or a combo of something like Monkey Style and Snake Style to boost niche defenses (protect myself from prone penalties + let me sub in Sense Motive for my abyssmal touch AC, for example). Any thoughts?
EDIT: Whoops, I missed that Archon Diversion requires an extra hand.
Monkey and Snake are a good defensive combo, and after last months FAQ changes, Crane Style is worth taking again. They are probably your best options for a non-unarmed focus.
Well, I'm leaning away from Crane Style because taking attack penalties for an AC bonus defeats the purpose of the opportune parry. But giving me an option against rays and making me essentially immune to trips is sweet.
OK, here's what I'm looking at right now:
Human Paladin of Shelyn 2 | Kata Master/Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Sacred Mountain 2 | Paladin X
Paladin 1: Dodge, Toughness, detect evil, smite evil
Paladin 2: lay on hands, divine grace
Monk 1: Snake Style, Weapon Focus (morningstar), panache pool (opportune parry and riposte, derring-do), Improved Unarmed Strike 1d6, other monk stuff
Monk 2: Retrain Toughness --> Power Attack, Toughness, Monkey Style, +1 natural armor
Paladin 3: Shield Focus, mercy
Paladin 4: spells
Paladin 5: ???
Unsure from that point. But at level 3, I'm rocking 24 AC, saves of +9/+7/+9, and can use Sense Motive at +7 against touch attacks if I need it. I attack at +6 for 1d8+3, but that starts going up quickly as I boost Strength, get a magic weapon, and pick up Power Attack.
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I like the monk options w/ the archetypes MUCH better than the Swashbuckler dip. MoMS is one of my favorite 2 level dips - and Kata Master makes that even cooler.
I would suggest taking a serious look at Tiger Pounce, as I think Paladin needs more help on offense than defense.
LOH plus no attack penalties to Power Attack? Yes, please!
I just realized that Opportune Parry and Riposte doesn't have any requirement for a one-handed weapon. Wow - nice!
I just realized that Opportune Parry and Riposte doesn't have any requirement for a one-handed weapon. Wow - nice!
Sure, but you still need to use a light or one-handed piercing weapon to regain the panache you spend. That's where the morningstar comes in.
Bumping this, mainly to put it on the record. I realized that I can skip Snake Sidewind and go straight to Snake Fang for my second monk bonus feat, so now I have:
Human Paladin of Shelyn 2 | Kata Master/Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Sacred Mountain 2 | Paladin X
Paladin 1: Dodge, Toughness, detect evil, smite evil
Paladin 2: lay on hands, divine grace
Monk 1: Snake Style, Weapon Focus (morningstar), panache pool (opportune parry and riposte, derring-do), Improved Unarmed Strike 1d6, other monk stuff
Monk 2: Retrain Toughness --> Power Attack, Toughness, Snake Fang, +1 natural armor, +1 Str
Paladin 3: Combat Reflexes, mercy
Paladin 4: spells
Paladin 5: Shield Focus or Extra Panache
Paladin 6: +1 Dex, mercy
Paladin 7: Extra Panache or Shield Focus